. Exactly. Like I said everyone has a right to their opinion. However right now those who stand by the argument that Fredo was “cunning, ruthless, and wanting to harm Mike there is very little evidence to support that argument. Whereas there is much more evidence that supports the argument that Fredo was simply duped by Roth and he didn’t know what was going to happen, he thought he was helping the Family and Mike. It was stupid obviously but there wasn’t ruthless intent

I'm not sure how the word "undoubtedly" is supposed to function there. For all we know, Fredo had some glancing contact with Questadt in Havana, and was as surprised as anyone to see Questadt on TV with the senators.

I know Some people keep bringing up the Senate lawyer to prove Fredo wanted to hurt Mike. Like Pete said we don’t know how long or to what degree Fredo knew. My feeling is that he was kept pretty much in the dark with that too. Let’s be honest if Fredo Really wanted to hurt Mike then why tell him about Questadt? He still ended up telling Mike which ended up helping Mike

Logically:

--If Roth wanted to have Michael killed in his bedroom, and...
--the drapes had to be opened so the gunmen could have a clear shot at Michael, and...
--a security guard was bribed or planted to open the drapes, then...

What would they need Fredo for?

Let's not forget that Kay was in the bed when the drapes were opened. We know this from her genuinely surprised "Michael, why are the drapes open?"

Which means they must have been closed when she retired for the night.

Whoever opened them must have had ninja-like stealth skills.

I long ago came to the conclusion that FFC just effed up the plotting. Makes for some spirited discussions though.

I think that it's a very reasonable inference that Fredo opened the drapes.

When that morphs into Fredo must have opened the drapes, and from there Fredo must have known it was going to be a hit, and then Fredo must have been promised to be boss, then I think the inference breaks down. It ignores that Fredo says he didn't know, that Michael says he knows Fredo didn't know, that a generation later Kay doesn't seem to have resentment that Fredo tried to kill her. It also undermines the real tragedy of the film, which is that Mike's own rigidity is leading him to murder his own brother - over a screwup.

TB, you raise a good point.

We know from the late-night phone call that Ola is using Fredo for information. ("Will he come alone?")

I'll speculate that they needed Fredo for something similar in Tahoe. Details about the security arrangements, ways in and out of the compound, etc.

Or maybe Fredo opened the drapes. Obviously, that's a possibility. I happen to think it's not the most likely scenario, but it might have happened.

But, as Pete says, it's a bit much to build all kinds of scenarios on guesswork about a sequence in the film that, when scrutinized carefully, doesn't entirely make sense.

I also agree with Pete that the subsequent actions of the characters argue against Fredo's culpability.

To his list, I'll add Michael's poignant confession to Cardinal Lamberto. It's hard to imagine Michael being so wracked with guilt over ordering the death of someone who not only came within a whisker of killing Michael, but also Kay and, potentially, Mary and Anthony. Nor would Michael describe an assassination attempt as "He injured me."

That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on
So no real surprise there that our theories may morph into must have beens -- what else is left

1. Fredo also said he never met Ola
2. Michael says Fredo didn't know before his boathouse outburst
3. what was he getting in return for a very reasonable inference that Fredo opened the drapes and why
4. If this inference breaks down or it's not the most likely scenario What would they need Fredo for?

We'd also debated Michael could have spared Fredo but regrettably and sadly murdering his own brother seemed a good idea at that time -- and the stark contrast between Fredo's boathouse outburst and Michael's tormented, teary confession

True when scrutinized carefully, the all kinds of scenarios on guesswork about a sequence in the film -- for and against, doesn't entirely make sense. Then again That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on

I reckon a pretty good case could be made, for and against Definitely one of the most debatable topics here over the years Still is

Exactly Woltz it is all assumptions -- uh -- Everything and each of us build our theories based around our assumptions because we don't see on screen and the same basis applies to both sides of the debate -- for and against

True We don't see who opens the drapes and we don't see who did not open the drapes either

So if some of the posters here have made the assumption that Fredo did and have built all kinds of theories on that nonfactual foundation, the counter debates are no different either as to the other posters who made the assumption that Fredo did not and have built all kinds of theories on that nonfactual foundation.

But to say Many of the posts here, as Don Lucchesi would say, are built on mud. dismissed and shouted down. -- to coin a phrase, is not the act of a Godfather friend

True we can't credibly argue that Fredo knew or not it was a hit or was promised the Donship or anything else or not on "Well, he opened the drapes." or "Well, he did not open the drapes." Because if we don't know that he did, you don't know that he did not either

Everyone's assumptions and their nonfactual theories is valid to them usually grounded in things for and against as they see fit

I reckon everyone's interpretations / speculations are worth considering in the spirit of the Board and whether we are receptive or not, their views are valid to them just as yours is to you

It is everyone's prerogative to engage in speculation about things we don't see on screen and we are still debating half a century on because perhaps no interpretations / speculations are wholly accurate or inaccurate....

Look -- we are all reasonable Godfather fans here; We are here because of our love of these movies Every one of us
Let's keep enjoying the fun of these boards, our Godfather melting pot of riveting perspective and spirited discussions without trying to invalidate and muddy Many of the posts here

We all draw the water from the same well after all -- we are not Fredo haters.

Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth

My take, for what it is worth!

• Drapes

Extracts:

If you are referring to my below post?
I would like to read a statement before this Board and put it in the record! That's a complete falsehood!!In fact, my counter point was posted with a question mark and was referencing Turnbull's post (which I happen to agree with)

My take, I still can't see Rocco's crew or especially the extra security men [outsiders] if any brought in to the party, allowed into -
Besides, in my view -

• Rocco would have secured the house well before the party started
• only authorised people eg: family would have been allowed in
• I doubt non-family would have been left wondering about especially in the Boss' bedroom, unescorted
• even got Pentangeli waiting in the lobby
• Rocco was escorting Ola's men when taking care of their hunger!

and the timing....

My take, for what it is worth!

Extracts:

Boathouse dialogue
My take, Fredo seemed to know now meant the Senate hearing and also knew -

• They've got Pentangeli
  [committee will produce a [star!] witness who collaborates the charges that were made against Michael and at which time Mr. Corleone may very well be subject to indictment for perjury]
• Questadt belongs to Roth

Hence my conclusion that Fredo -
1. had prior knowledge of the Senate hearing
2. withheld information that may very well be detrimental to Michael

Roth or Barzini? Whose plan was the best?

Whilst Fredo's concealment of the Senate hearing and withholding of the information Fredo knew, from Michael, ultimately made no difference whatsoever, the fact remains, Fredo never volunteered what Fredo knew even after the first hearing Why?

I know a few keep bringing up Questadt as “proof” that Fredo was trying to bring Mike down or that he was ruthless but like I’ve said before if that was the case then why tell Mike about it? If he truly wanted to bring Mike down then he would’ve kept quiet about it. Honestly we don’t know how long he knew about it or to what extent. Plus Fredo was obviously scared of Mike so in his mind he probably felt there was a good chance he would kill him the second he revealed that which is probably accurate. The fact remains that he still told Mike about the Senate lawyer. The fact remains that the only brother that purposely killed his own brother was….Mike. The fact remains that there is much more evidence that shows Fredo was simply duped by Roth and didn’t know it was going to be hit. Look I’m not saying Fredo did the right thing. It was incredibly stupid but I just dont see much evidence pointing to Fredo purposely being cunning enough to try and harm his brother. It seems like he simply wanted to do something g on his own and despite his nativity/stupidity he thought he was helping the Family and Mike. Hell even Mike himself admits that “I know Roth misled him and he didn’t know they were going to try and kill me”

I think that a security person, including Rocco, would more naturally be present around Michael's bedroom than Fredo would. Buildings don't get secured and then are left alone - that's why modern buildings have cameras, instead of just a guy at the desk. Someone may have slipped through or been concealed, so security makes their rounds.

In their very emotional confrontation, Fredo only tells Michael useless information. They've got Pentangeli. He bumped into Johnny in Beverly Hills. Questadt belongs to Roth. From that, you can either construct a series of musts to solve the mystery, or you can accept that there are things you don't know and move on to the drama between the brothers.

I haven't said this in several years, but if you want to solve the "mystery" of the story then Bussetta serves about as well as anybody. He could kill the shooters, he must have been around the compound because he's right there on the train with Michael when they return to the contemporary story, and when he kills Johnny they show him emerging, ghost-like, from a set of drapes. Again, I point this out not to assert its truth, but just to show how loose the script is respecting these matters. You can make a case for anything.

No doubt we can make a case for anything and we still are

I don't think the house would get secured before the party started and then left alone. I reckon someone would have been guarding the Doors all the time and vet people being let in However you are correct just shows how loose the script is respecting these matters.

I reckon huge risk for Rocco or a security person be present around their Boss' bedroom after the Boss' wife had retired for the night and the precision timing.... Kay just turns her back.... for the drapes opener as lucab19 posted even with ninja-like stealth skills

True Fredo only tells Michael useless information but he didn't know that. Questadt was so ineffective anyway but he obviously
1. had prior knowledge of the Senate hearing
2. withheld information that may very well be detrimental to Michael
If he hadn't already taken the necessary measures, bringing Frankie's brother over

While accepting that there are things we don't know and we don't and moving on to the drama between the brothers is fascinating enough but constructing a series of melting pot musts to try to solve the mystery, is definitely more challenging, infinitely interesting and more fun

We could keep going for 2000 years and still no right or wrong answer!
That's the Beauty of these films that we are still debating half a century on

As regards ghost-like, Bussetta, perhaps a possible contender but then he could have killed Michael, single-handed
There were plenty coat hangers and pillows, his preferred choice of killing but then again drama

• Bussetta

I am confused! How can Bussetta be a possible contender / be involved in the Tahoe shooting? Bussetta was Michael's man

Bussetta's “right there on the train with Michael when they return to the contemporary story” because Bussetta was whisked! from wherever by the same Travel Agency! that arranged Vincenzo Pentangeli’s speedy, miraculous appearance! at the Senate hearing

Did anyone else notice that .......

Bussetta's supposed to be very good with coat hangers but pillows....

it was -- Fredo all along...

Ten to one -- ten to one shot we said -- ten to one shot that the drapes were closed when Kay retired for the night

Whilst Michael owes! his life to that monkey of open drapes....

If my memory serves me right, Kay was already in bed when Michael comes in, looks at the drawing Anthony had left for Michael on the pillow, talks to Kay who was at this stage facing the window, moves towards and stands by the window - Michael's silhouette making an easy, perfect target

All the above seemingly happening over quite sometime before Kay's "Michael Why are the drapes open?"
If neither Michael nor Kay noticed! the drapes being open all this while, it throws our 'theory' the drapes were closed when Kay retired for the night - out of whack....

I now believe, it was -- Kay! all along....

I still think it’s a big reach to conclude that Fredo purposely was trying to hurt his brother. It just seems like there is much more evidence pointing to Fredo simply feeling in his mind he was doing something on his own To help the family and Mike

you raise a good point. I also like your funny papers

I'm gonna find out what the hell happened here!

Coppola used up all his directorial license creative considerations
Wonder he be amused or annoyed by our ongoing dissection of the minutiae of the Trilogy Great, Great and then GF3

Come on, kid, don't fool around!

Kay would not retired for the night that big window open So drapes were closed
She asleep when Michael comes in, woke up as he looks at the drawing

Fredo the traitor in the family

My two cents worth!

No doubt Fredo was guilty of something that significantly contributed to the Tahoe shooting

Can't see him killing the shooters so the little help, I reckon was opening the drapes

You are right Capri Kay was asleep
My take, Perfect! for the "drapes opener" who Ref: lucab19 "must have had ninja-like stealth skills" - sounds like.... Fredo! to me

Michael surviving the Tahoe shooting screws up all Fredo's arrangements!
oh! Fredo, It was all lies -- uh -- everything! among others -

• Never met Ola
  
  Quote

  Fredo: Two million dollars in the seat next to me in the plane
  What the hell is goin' on anyway? I'm totally in the dark
• Fredo knew what the hell is going on! Fredo was not totally in the dark
• Fredo knew Michael and Roth were in, on a big deal together
• I doubt Fredo knew anything about the actual negotiations that Michael was being 'tough on' but....
• even if Fredo knew, why would Fredo think it'd be good for the family? for Roth to get any inside help
• Why Fredo needed to be bribed with “something in it for me” reward? for it'd be good for the family
• and what was Fredo's little help? to get his reward

So how can we believe Fredo, when Fredo says -

We can't and We don't!

I too reckon, oh! Fredo, It was all lies -- uh -- everything! and what was Fredo's little help? to get his reward

I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle:

In the boathouse, Frredo told Michael: "Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- and he said that he wanted to talk -- he said that you and -- and -- Roth were in on a -- a -- big deal together. And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that -- he said that -- you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help -- and close the deal fast -- it'd be good for the family."

"A little help"? Fredo wasn't part of the Havana deal and Michael had no reason to tell him anyrhing about it--he even kept Tom out of the negotiations. Same for Ola: Why would he need to tell Fredo anything more than that Roth and Michael were negotiating "a big deal"? Even if Fredo had overheard or inferred something about Michael and Havana, and if he put that together with Ola's tale, he still couold not have had any details that would have been useful to Roth. So, what kind of "help" could he have given Ola?

I think it's a reasonable inference that he could open the drapes for him.

But, note the subsequent conversation with Johnny: "Will he come alone?...Just go along, everything will be alright FREDO -- PENTANGELI says he's willing to make the deal. All we want to know is if he's on the level or if he's gonna bring his boys...." So Johnny, at least, seems to think that Fredo has ways of gaining insights into the Corleone family that could be helpful to Roth.

Again, though, Fredo's basic character in GF2 is something of a mystery. At the end of the first movie, he seems to be at least useful working in a big casino-hotel. Now the Corleones have four of them, and Fredo's running a brothel. It doesn't make sense. Is the only reason Fredo's doing that in the movie is so Tom can tell Geary it's Fredo's place?

Voilà! There are Five! [could be even more!!] versions to The Godfather Saga

1. Coppola / Puzo's - “directorial license creative considerations”
2. Yours
3. *Mine
4. True - “directorial license creative considerations”
5. and Fredo's!

Disclaimer: *I had built many a Godfather House of cards!

My take, for what it is worth!

I believe, Roth and Ola knew / would have known -

• "Fredo wasn't part of the Havana deal" and couldn't pass on any inside information -- Roth didn't need any!

Because -

• Roth was the Pied piper! beating the drums! calling the tune!
• Roth already had the Havana business
• so much money was at stake for Michael not Roth
• Roth had Michael believing Michael was Roth's son -- Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent

My take, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

It seems to me Fredo's "little help" was opening the drapes which is the only viable help that I can see Fredo [needed to] pulling off that is useful.... not different to your [previous] train of thought

All Roth wanted, Michael dead and for Roth to continue living his retired investor on a pension!

My take, for what it is worth!

My take, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

I believe -

• Ola 'bumped' into Fredo in Beverly Hills -- to sound out and fuel Fredo's stepped over! resentment and for Fredo's “little help”? for “something in it for me -- on my own” reward
• Ola's phone call to Fredo was a warning, veiled threat “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” Don't go squealing or else....and also to reassure Fredo "Just go along, everything will be alright"
• and to let us, the audience know who is the traitor in the family
• I don't believe, Ola's phone call to Fredo was because Ola "thinks that Fredo has ways of gaining insights into the Corleone family that could be helpful to Roth" Fredo didn't have any for the Havana deal
• Besides I believe, Ola would have known that Fredo wouldn't even know there was a Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting, let alone....

Fredo was putting all he'd learnt! from his good friend Moe, to running all of the Corleone 'legitimate' business – “big casino-hotels, brothels, Fredo's specialty! Entertainment - in addition to Fredo Corleone airport Taxi service!

It looked like Fredo was in charge -- uh -- everything! Michael says after Fredo's boathouse outburst -

That's where my thoughts were taking me.

Pete, I believe that scene was pure directoral licence, designed to set up Fredo as the traitor. The scene immediately before it ends with Michael telling Pentangeli he wants Roth "relaxed...and then I'll know who the traitor in my family is." Logically,how would Fredo know that Michael had asked Pentangeli to meet with the Rosatos? And, how would Fredo know whether or not Pentangeli was gonna bring his boys?

I agree that Fredo's character in II is something of a complex mystery since he was such a nonentity in GF. Now, all of a sudden, he's nursing a big grudge against his brother and is conspiring with Michael's enemies in a deadly plot. It's a huge turnaround for him. And,sure, Fredo operating the brothel is a perfect setup for the trap they set for Geary. I'll go a step farther: Maybe running the brothel was part of Fredo's "Mickey Mouse nightclub" resentment--he served a rough and humiliating apprenticeship learning the casino business under Moe Greene, but Michael apparently isn't letting him anywhere near his casino empire,or including him in the Havana deal. A step even farther: Vito had contempt for Tattaglia because he was a pimp---what is Fredo now?