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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: NYMafia]
#1065144
07/28/23 03:51 PM
07/28/23 03:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
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Great article and thanks. I had few laughs while reading, especially regarding the underwear case and also the comment which was made by Franks wife about the agent being single lol Yeah, that was a very foolish thing to do. A very stupid thing actually. Especially considering he was 'on the lam' at the time. I agree. Im also always surprised on how much the Italian mob was still connected to the African-American criminals during the 50s and 60s. Im saying "still" because there were Italians connected to the African-American criminal element since the start of the 20th century, especially in the numbers and policy rackets, although later the dope trade took their affiliation on a whole different level.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1065154
07/29/23 01:58 AM
07/29/23 01:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
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Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. I personally agree, although it seems that during the 40s, 50s and 60s the US Mafia mainly acted as transportation group, meaning they were the main players who brough the dope into the US and usually distributed to other ethnic groups such as the African-American criminal element. For example if the whole shipment landed in NY or Florida, and so parts from that same shipment were distributed to other cities such as Detriot, Chicago, Tampa etc. Im not saying there werent any Italian guys who sold it on the streets with their pizzerias and all types of shops as cover, but most of the dope was sold or was lent to the other ethnic groups which the Italians were already connected to, not just blacks, but also Latinos. That statement from the Godfather movie in which one of the bosses said that they kept the drugs away from their own neighborhoods and sold it only to the Aftican-American hoods, is quite true. During the 50s and 60s the Chicago Outfit was doing the same thing, meaning most of the dope was distributed around the South Side where most of the black population lived. Or on the North Side or wherever there was a large black neighborhood at the time. Again, there were Italian dealers who sold it to other Italian crews who in turn sold it on the streets, but most of the evidences show that the other ethnic groups were their main target, at least in Chicago during a certain time period. By 1970s the African-American dealers became bigger than the US Mafia in the dope trade when they started using other suppliers and also selling the product on the streets in small doses, something which brings a lot more money then acting only as transporters and selling it in large quantities. I mean they already knew how to sell it on the street corners, mainly because they previously had at least 2 or 3 decades to learn about it lol. In fact, selling dope on small doses is similar to the nickles and dimes from the policy or numbers rackets, which by the end of the day brought millions in both examples.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Liggio]
#1065183
07/29/23 10:00 AM
07/29/23 10:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
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OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
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In America, Italian criminals are FAR outnumbered by African-American criminals, there are WAY more black gangs than Mafia families, so yeah, that's not even a competition. In fact, it's not even a fair comparison. Reminds me of when people try to compare LCN to Mexican drug cartels, it's nonsense. Mexico has no rules, it's narco land. They shouldn't be compared to ANY group in a country like the USA. True. But I think that its always been "quality" over "quantity" regarding LCN. Admittedly, the core membership of Cosa Nostra, depending upon which law enforcement agency you wanna believe, never exceeded 3000-5000 members. Even with their close 'associate-members' and general associates taken into count, you're probably talking another several hundred thousand strong. Yet, they controlled not only every single important criminal racket worth controlling, but hundreds of thousands of legitimate businesses as well and many major industries. Not to mention, that they alone, were able to corrupt local and state LE on a grand scale, some in federal law enforcement, and many elected public officials across the country, and deeply infiltrated the United States government. THATS really saying something! No other organized crime group, regardless of who they were, has even even come close to accomplishing that.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1065234
07/29/23 03:48 PM
07/29/23 03:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
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OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
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Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. You're 1000% correct BigTuna. Guys like Nicky Barnes, Goldfinger Terrell, Frank Matthews, etc., bought buy the kilo, or kilos, and broke it down to 'quarters' which they had a legion of 'sitters' sell for $50 a bag from dingy apartments all over West Harlem and the Bronx. That was big for them. But aside from that, more often than not, they were using street dealers (who were junkies themselves), to sell $10 and $25 bags to fellow junkies who'd line up (literally), sometimes by the dozens at a time to cop their stuff. - While guys like Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese, Joseph Di Palermo, John Ormento, etc., moved hundreds of kilograms at a shot that they'd smuggle into the United States from overseas past the Canadian border, ships that docked into NY Harbor, etc. There's just no comparison...It's like talking' apples and potatoes.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Toodoped]
#1065315
07/30/23 07:03 AM
07/30/23 07:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
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OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
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I still dont understand the US Mafia's alleged idea or thinking that the narcotics trade was bringing larger prison terms and informants, while on the other hand most of the bosses from the 70s and 80s were given life sentences regarding extortion and murder, again backed by informants. I personally believe that same "idea" is either a simple myth or the bosses really had selfish reasons.... The so-called narcotics 'ban' imposed by the Commission dates back to the late 1950s when many guys were getting pinched for narcotics and facing long jail terms (and also getting them at sentencing.) During that same era, unless you got nailed for murder, most other types of rackets either brought you no jail time, or a very short bid. Unlike narcotics, which was almost a guarantee to send you up the river for a stretch. By the late 1980s, it truly didn't matter any longer. Because with the enactment, and use, of the RICO laws, guys were falling for big time anyway, regardless of what they got convicted of. But dating back to the 1950s-1960s when the mob pretty much had a free hand, narcotics was considered a dangerous game to play. Hence, why most of the bosses dissuaded their soldiers from engaging in that type of thing.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Toodoped]
#1065318
07/30/23 07:26 AM
07/30/23 07:26 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679 Chicago
CabriniGreen
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679
Chicago
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n Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. I personally agree, although it seems that during the 40s, 50s and 60s the US Mafia mainly acted as transportation group, meaning they were the main players who brough the dope into the US and usually distributed to other ethnic groups such as the African-American criminal element. For example if the whole shipment landed in NY or Florida, and so parts from that same shipment were distributed to other cities such as Detriot, Chicago, Tampa etc. Im not saying there werent any Italian guys who sold it on the streets with their pizzerias and all types of shops as cover, but most of the dope was sold or was lent to the other ethnic groups which the Italians were already connected to, not just blacks, but also Latinos. That statement from the Godfather movie in which one of the bosses said that they kept the drugs away from their own neighborhoods and sold it only to the Aftican-American hoods, is quite true. During the 50s and 60s the Chicago Outfit was doing the same thing, meaning most of the dope was distributed around the South Side where most of the black population lived. Or on the North Side or wherever there was a large black neighborhood at the time. Again, there were Italian dealers who sold it to other Italian crews who in turn sold it on the streets, but most of the evidences show that the other ethnic groups were their main target, at least in Chicago during a certain time period. By 1970s the African-American dealers became bigger than the US Mafia in the dope trade when they started using other suppliers and also selling the product on the streets in small doses, something which brings a lot more money then acting only as transporters and selling it in large quantities. I mean they already knew how to sell it on the street corners, mainly because they previously had at least 2 or 3 decades to learn about it lol. In fact, selling dope on small doses is similar to the nickles and dimes from the policy or numbers rackets, which by the end of the day brought millions in both examples. The drug conversation always gets weird, especially on the other board. I asked for a discussion on the nuances of the " ban" being in effect during the Pizza Connection, and how it had to be more political than practical, seeing as how 3 of the 5 families had active Sicilian factions moving dope, Mannino was in Philly moving who knows what with the boss's approval, the Buffalo BuSiCo thing, like a majority of the families on the East Coast were VERY involved. No one was bigger in dope than the Italians in the States. That's a fucking fact. There probably wouldn't even BE a heroin trade like that. Yet there always all this deflection from their involvement When the mob got involved in bootleg liquor, when the sufferage movement was happening, i dont people realize, this was a massive epidemic. Imagine the mob today going knee deep into fentanyl..... In the 40s, and 50s... drugs wasn't that big a racket. THEY made it big.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#1065337
07/30/23 01:54 PM
07/30/23 01:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
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n Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. I personally agree, although it seems that during the 40s, 50s and 60s the US Mafia mainly acted as transportation group, meaning they were the main players who brough the dope into the US and usually distributed to other ethnic groups such as the African-American criminal element. For example if the whole shipment landed in NY or Florida, and so parts from that same shipment were distributed to other cities such as Detriot, Chicago, Tampa etc. Im not saying there werent any Italian guys who sold it on the streets with their pizzerias and all types of shops as cover, but most of the dope was sold or was lent to the other ethnic groups which the Italians were already connected to, not just blacks, but also Latinos. That statement from the Godfather movie in which one of the bosses said that they kept the drugs away from their own neighborhoods and sold it only to the Aftican-American hoods, is quite true. During the 50s and 60s the Chicago Outfit was doing the same thing, meaning most of the dope was distributed around the South Side where most of the black population lived. Or on the North Side or wherever there was a large black neighborhood at the time. Again, there were Italian dealers who sold it to other Italian crews who in turn sold it on the streets, but most of the evidences show that the other ethnic groups were their main target, at least in Chicago during a certain time period. By 1970s the African-American dealers became bigger than the US Mafia in the dope trade when they started using other suppliers and also selling the product on the streets in small doses, something which brings a lot more money then acting only as transporters and selling it in large quantities. I mean they already knew how to sell it on the street corners, mainly because they previously had at least 2 or 3 decades to learn about it lol. In fact, selling dope on small doses is similar to the nickles and dimes from the policy or numbers rackets, which by the end of the day brought millions in both examples. The drug conversation always gets weird, especially on the other board. I asked for a discussion on the nuances of the " ban" being in effect during the Pizza Connection, and how it had to be more political than practical, seeing as how 3 of the 5 families had active Sicilian factions moving dope, Mannino was in Philly moving who knows what with the boss's approval, the Buffalo BuSiCo thing, like a majority of the families on the East Coast were VERY involved. No one was bigger in dope than the Italians in the States. That's a fucking fact. There probably wouldn't even BE a heroin trade like that. Yet there always all this deflection from their involvement When the mob got involved in bootleg liquor, when the sufferage movement was happening, i dont people realize, this was a massive epidemic. Imagine the mob today going knee deep into fentanyl..... In the 40s, and 50s... drugs wasn't that big a racket. THEY made it big. +1 Although dont forget that at first or at the start, they "removed" themselves from the racket at least two or three times. Meaning the bosses used their capos who in turn used their soldiers, who in turn used their associates who then used their "runners" or everyday street guys. Yes, sometimes bosses like Accardo (when he was younger during the 50s) or Giancana made mistakes by having street level dope dealers at their houses or headquarters. And if they got caught, that was it...dead. I mean we are talking about not very intelegent street bosses here...i mean killing people all the time isnt a highly intelegent thing to do, only because you invinted them at your house for an envelope of the dope biz and because later they got caught....deal but dont get caught. Thats it.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: NYMafia]
#1080553
01/18/24 10:17 PM
01/18/24 10:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 615
Dob_Peppino
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 615
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Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. You're 1000% correct BigTuna. Guys like Nicky Barnes, Goldfinger Terrell, Frank Matthews, etc., bought buy the kilo, or kilos, and broke it down to 'quarters' which they had a legion of 'sitters' sell for $50 a bag from dingy apartments all over West Harlem and the Bronx. That was big for them. But aside from that, more often than not, they were using street dealers (who were junkies themselves), to sell $10 and $25 bags to fellow junkies who'd line up (literally), sometimes by the dozens at a time to cop their stuff. - While guys like Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese, Joseph Di Palermo, John Ormento, etc., moved hundreds of kilograms at a shot that they'd smuggle into the United States from overseas past the Canadian border, ships that docked into NY Harbor, etc. There's just no comparison...It's like talking' apples and potatoes. I've been looking in to the drug trade alot lately. The mob had the heroin game on lock until about 1968. After that, not as strong. I read a report from the mid 70s of the "top narcotics traffickers in New York". It was 15 names. Some familar, like Barnes, DiPalermo, and Lucas. But what I found particularly interesting, was the 5 hispanic dealers whom I NEVER heard of any any criminal context. I bring this up to say, that there was and is alot of money there and it all didn't belong to the mob. And furthermore, blacks and hispanics became just as resourceful and innovative in that racket without the mafia. They had there day, then they went to build stuff and collect garbage. Lots of money. But they were not the shotcallers beyond the 60s. Thats a fact. Lastly, Nicky Barnes, Frank Lucas, Frank Matthews, Eddie Jackson, Doc Davis, (just to name a few) were elite level narco traffickers, no matter how you slice it. I mean every position in the LCN is not a great one. Would you rather be the boss of San Jose or Nicky Barnes??? There were several millionaire kingpins during the 70s, in harlem alone.
"Joe Bananas went after Carlo Gambino, the war went on for seven years..... When guys go to the mattresses, they're not out earning" -Tony Soprano
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: Dob_Peppino]
#1080560
01/19/24 05:06 AM
01/19/24 05:06 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
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OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
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Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. You're 1000% correct BigTuna. Guys like Nicky Barnes, Goldfinger Terrell, Frank Matthews, etc., bought buy the kilo, or kilos, and broke it down to 'quarters' which they had a legion of 'sitters' sell for $50 a bag from dingy apartments all over West Harlem and the Bronx. That was big for them. But aside from that, more often than not, they were using street dealers (who were junkies themselves), to sell $10 and $25 bags to fellow junkies who'd line up (literally), sometimes by the dozens at a time to cop their stuff. - While guys like Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese, Joseph Di Palermo, John Ormento, etc., moved hundreds of kilograms at a shot that they'd smuggle into the United States from overseas past the Canadian border, ships that docked into NY Harbor, etc. There's just no comparison...It's like talking' apples and potatoes. I've been looking in to the drug trade alot lately. The mob had the heroin game on lock until about 1968. After that, not as strong. I read a report from the mid 70s of the "top narcotics traffickers in New York". It was 15 names. Some familar, like Barnes, DiPalermo, and Lucas. But what I found particularly interesting, was the 5 hispanic dealers whom I NEVER heard of any any criminal context. I bring this up to say, that there was and is alot of money there and it all didn't belong to the mob. And furthermore, blacks and hispanics became just as resourceful and innovative in that racket without the mafia. They had there day, then they went to build stuff and collect garbage. Lots of money. But they were not the shotcallers beyond the 60s. Thats a fact. Lastly, Nicky Barnes, Frank Lucas, Frank Matthews, Eddie Jackson, Doc Davis, (just to name a few) were elite level narco traffickers, no matter how you slice it. I mean every position in the LCN is not a great one. Would you rather be the boss of San Jose or Nicky Barnes??? There were several millionaire kingpins during the 70s, in harlem alone. Don Pep, I respectfully have to disagree with your assessment here. What about the so-called "Cherry Hill" Gambino brothers? They ran a multi-multi-multimillion-dollar world-wide "international" heroin smuggling and distribution network from the 1950s-60s, well into the 1970s and 1980s?... How bout the infamous "Pizza Connection" that moved $1.6-Billion (NOT million, billion) dollars in product from Europe to America? For that matter, how about their Sicilian counterparts and affiliates who picked up the ball and continued running with it for years to come? And thats not mentioning the Calabrian N'drangheta who grew to eventually dwarf the Sicilians on the world-wide stage, all across Europe and North America too, in both heroin and cocaine, among other illegal substances? The blacks never had that type or international power and buying ability or connections. Hispanics like the Colombians and Mexicans? Well, thats another story altogether. You gotta remember that where they originate from, their homeland, is where the "farming and cultivation" for such products come from. So naturally, (I would hope,) they would be on top of that sort of business.....But even they are challenged when it comes to matching the talents and abilities of the Mafia. All these other organizations that you wanna bring up are, for me at least, "one trick ponies" compared to the Sicilians, Calabrese and Napolitani....and the collective Italian mobs in general.
Last edited by NYMafia; 01/19/24 05:12 AM.
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: NYMafia]
#1080648
01/19/24 10:20 PM
01/19/24 10:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 615
Dob_Peppino
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 615
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Always laugh when people bring up guys like Nicky Barnes as if they were the big dope dealers in NYC. Guys like Galante moved more dope than any of those guys from behind bars. Italians ran that racket. You're 1000% correct BigTuna. Guys like Nicky Barnes, Goldfinger Terrell, Frank Matthews, etc., bought buy the kilo, or kilos, and broke it down to 'quarters' which they had a legion of 'sitters' sell for $50 a bag from dingy apartments all over West Harlem and the Bronx. That was big for them. But aside from that, more often than not, they were using street dealers (who were junkies themselves), to sell $10 and $25 bags to fellow junkies who'd line up (literally), sometimes by the dozens at a time to cop their stuff. - While guys like Carmine Galante, Vito Genovese, Joseph Di Palermo, John Ormento, etc., moved hundreds of kilograms at a shot that they'd smuggle into the United States from overseas past the Canadian border, ships that docked into NY Harbor, etc. There's just no comparison...It's like talking' apples and potatoes. I've been looking in to the drug trade alot lately. The mob had the heroin game on lock until about 1968. After that, not as strong. I read a report from the mid 70s of the "top narcotics traffickers in New York". It was 15 names. Some familar, like Barnes, DiPalermo, and Lucas. But what I found particularly interesting, was the 5 hispanic dealers whom I NEVER heard of any any criminal context. I bring this up to say, that there was and is alot of money there and it all didn't belong to the mob. And furthermore, blacks and hispanics became just as resourceful and innovative in that racket without the mafia. They had there day, then they went to build stuff and collect garbage. Lots of money. But they were not the shotcallers beyond the 60s. Thats a fact. Lastly, Nicky Barnes, Frank Lucas, Frank Matthews, Eddie Jackson, Doc Davis, (just to name a few) were elite level narco traffickers, no matter how you slice it. I mean every position in the LCN is not a great one. Would you rather be the boss of San Jose or Nicky Barnes??? There were several millionaire kingpins during the 70s, in harlem alone. Don Pep, I respectfully have to disagree with your assessment here. What about the so-called "Cherry Hill" Gambino brothers? They ran a multi-multi-multimillion-dollar world-wide "international" heroin smuggling and distribution network from the 1950s-60s, well into the 1970s and 1980s?... How bout the infamous "Pizza Connection" that moved $1.6-Billion (NOT million, billion) dollars in product from Europe to America? For that matter, how about their Sicilian counterparts and affiliates who picked up the ball and continued running with it for years to come? And thats not mentioning the Calabrian N'drangheta who grew to eventually dwarf the Sicilians on the world-wide stage, all across Europe and North America too, in both heroin and cocaine, among other illegal substances? The blacks never had that type or international power and buying ability or connections. Hispanics like the Colombians and Mexicans? Well, thats another story altogether. You gotta remember that where they originate from, their homeland, is where the "farming and cultivation" for such products come from. So naturally, (I would hope,) they would be on top of that sort of business.....But even they are challenged when it comes to matching the talents and abilities of the Mafia. All these other organizations that you wanna bring up are, for me at least, "one trick ponies" compared to the Sicilians, Calabrese and Napolitani....and the collective Italian mobs in general. We could go around in circles on this one. Everybody knows the Mafia is the most sophisticated criminal organization (or at least it was), so lets get that out the way. The 5 guys I named probably came close to that Pizza connection money collectively and 4 of them had connections outside of LCN drug pipelines. There were about 15 guys in harlem alone during the late 60s -70s who were multi-millionaires. Not even counting the other boroughs and forget about the rest of the country. Its a open drug market, the mob made money, the blacks, the hispanics and even the asians sneaked in and got some of it. It just is what it is. The mob had the game sowed up with the 60% pure kilo for 50 thousand. When those guys got the 93%-97% pure kilo for 16 thousand, that changed the game. Today its a different game altogether. But they all had their day. And at the end of the day the few things they all had in common was, some went to jail forever. Some got killed never to be seen again. Some got killed for their family to see in the newspapers. Some of them lost their honor because they told. But NONE of them or their organizations are BIGGER THAN THE DRUG TRADE!!! It was here and it will be here. Everyone will have their day. that's a line from a drug movie haha
Last edited by Dob_Peppino; 01/19/24 10:20 PM.
"Joe Bananas went after Carlo Gambino, the war went on for seven years..... When guys go to the mattresses, they're not out earning" -Tony Soprano
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Re: NEW BIO: Frank Madonna - "Kingpin" of Harlem Dope
[Re: NYMafia]
#1080663
01/20/24 07:38 AM
01/20/24 07:38 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
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OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
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Well said, Don Pep. And I generally concur with you on this. The "drug business" is a world-wide enterprise, and to a degree, always has been (even when the Mafia ruled the roost.) It's just way too big for any one entity to control, and too wide spread, regardless of who they are; Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, Colombians, Blacks, Argentinians, French, Coriscans, Turks, Iranians, Americans, Canadians, etc., the list goes on and on.
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