3 registered members (RushStreet, m2w, 1 invisible),
45
guests, and 32
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics43,347
Posts1,086,179
Members10,381
|
Most Online1,254 Mar 13th, 2025
|
|
|
A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
#1077629
12/22/23 08:06 AM
12/22/23 08:06 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
|
OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
|
A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!
A rat is a rat is a rat! Regardless of who they may have ratted on. There is NO distinction made between informers based on who they happen to give up. There is no line in the sand drawn that differentiates between the depth of rats or their levels of informing, of “how much” of a rat they were.
If you opened your mouth about anyone at all, regardless of who they may have been, then you’re a piece of shit.
Whether a given rat provided information to the authorities about a top Italian Mafia boss or a soldier, a top Jewish associate, a peripheral hanger-on, a corrupt politician or cop, or he spilled his guts against a lowly destitute Bowery Bum, that guy has now become, in the eyes of everyone who counts and pays attention to such things, a confirmed stool pigeon!
There is no such thing as, “I only gave them certain things” or “I only gave up a black guy” or “I only gave up a Jewish ‘associate, not an ‘inducted’ Mafia member.” Or, “He was a nobody, so who cares? It really doesn’t count as ratting.”
Once you open your mouth and give information against another person, any other person, then you’re a fucking rat…period!
And that is, hands down, an ironclad and non-negotiable fact of life…fact of street life…and a fact of “The Life.”
Here’s another weak excuse, “I only gave him up because the guy did this, that, and the other thing to me.” Or, “I only talked to the cops this one time because of the circumstances involved. But I’d never do it again, I’m not a rat”
The fact is that once is enough. In fact, once is more than enough! And another fact of life is that if you did it once, then under the right circumstances, you’d do it all over again.
Like I said, “A Rat is a Rat is a Rat!”
And there is no two ways about that!…End of story! — ButtonGuys newly expanded and completely redesigned, “The Rats Nest”
The most extensive and comprehensive list of rodents throughout the United States ever compiled…to be rereleased next year. —
…Only at ButtonGuys of The New York Mafia!
Last edited by NYMafia; 12/22/23 08:07 AM.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Toodoped]
#1077637
12/22/23 09:06 AM
12/22/23 09:06 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
|
OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
|
@NYM whats your opinion on the court case in which Outfit top boss Paul Ricca confirmed to prosecutors that he and acting boss Jack Cerone were present during a meeting with Louie Bombacino (informant and court witness against them)? Because of that Ricca was released while Cerone was sent to jail, but keep in mind that Ricca had serious health issues at the time and was placed in "corner" by investigators, and was still at the top of the organization, meaning the role of the acting boss was to protect the real top admin. So was Ricca a rat in that particular situation? I don't know the exact particulars about that situation, but that aside, knowing what I do about the mechanics of these types of things, I'd have to say that Ricca was definitely NOT any type of informer or cooperator. I'm sure there were conversations held between Ricca, Cerone, Accardo and other top figures in their administration who vetted and pre-approved such a move for the "greater good" for the Outfit.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: NYMafia]
#1077638
12/22/23 09:13 AM
12/22/23 09:13 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
|
Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
|
@NYM whats your opinion on the court case in which Outfit top boss Paul Ricca confirmed to prosecutors that he and acting boss Jack Cerone were present during a meeting with Louie Bombacino (informant and court witness against them)? Because of that Ricca was released while Cerone was sent to jail, but keep in mind that Ricca had serious health issues at the time and was placed in "corner" by investigators, and was still at the top of the organization, meaning the role of the acting boss was to protect the real top admin. So was Ricca a rat in that particular situation? I don't know the exact particulars about that situation, but that aside, knowing what I do about the mechanics of these types of things, I'd have to say that Ricca was definitely NOT any type of informer or cooperator. I'm sure there were conversations held between Ricca, Cerone, Accardo and other top figures in their administration who vetted and pre-approved such a move for the "greater good" for the Outfit. I agree and on top of that it was Cerone's mistake for vouching to bring a low level member in a business convo with the Outfits top boss and possibly thats why some guys were mad at Cerone at the time. Although on the other hand, Ricca couldve kept his mouth shut and die in jail, but as you already said it was for the greater good for the organization.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: NYMafia]
#1077675
12/22/23 03:01 PM
12/22/23 03:01 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
|
Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
|
Just my two cents..dont forget that the so-called "Life" is evil and deceiving, and also dont forget that because of those same "rats", today we have these mob books, movies, forums, documentaries and all types of sites which in turn gives us at least 90% knowledge on how the US Mafia looked like or still looks from the inside.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Liggio]
#1077691
12/22/23 03:56 PM
12/22/23 03:56 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
|
Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
|
You make some good points, however we don't need every rat that comes out the woodwork to have good entertainment. Most of them actually offer us nothing. A few are valuable in that regard. The rates at which guys are flipping these days? It's gut-wrenching and disgusting. I completely agree with the "we dont need every rat" statement.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Toodoped]
#1077699
12/22/23 04:50 PM
12/22/23 04:50 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 4,223
Giacalone
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 4,223
|
Just my two cents..dont forget that the so-called "Life" is evil and deceiving, and also dont forget that because of those same "rats", today we have these mob books, movies, forums, documentaries and all types of sites which in turn gives us at least 90% knowledge on how the US Mafia looked like or still looks from the inside. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some people are overly passionate about what a rat is. People who claim to be "street guys". I'm not saying any names, but my comment was aimed at them
But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Giacalone]
#1077700
12/22/23 04:54 PM
12/22/23 04:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
|
Murder Ink

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,600
Underground
|
Just my two cents..dont forget that the so-called "Life" is evil and deceiving, and also dont forget that because of those same "rats", today we have these mob books, movies, forums, documentaries and all types of sites which in turn gives us at least 90% knowledge on how the US Mafia looked like or still looks from the inside. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some people are overly passionate about what a rat is. People who claim to be "street guys". I'm not saying any names, but my comment was aimed at them +1
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: NYMafia]
#1077724
12/22/23 09:45 PM
12/22/23 09:45 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
Dwalin2011
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
|
I don't know the exact particulars about that situation, but that aside, knowing what I do about the mechanics of these types of things, I'd have to say that Ricca was definitely NOT any type of informer or cooperator. I'm sure there were conversations held between Ricca, Cerone, Accardo and other top figures in their administration who vetted and pre-approved such a move for the "greater good" for the Outfit.
But if, as you say, a rat is a rat, then imo there is no excuse for Ricca either. If "for the greater good of the organization" is a "justifiable" excuse for giving someone up, then someone could argue that other excuses you listed above would be "valid" also.
Last edited by Dwalin2011; 12/22/23 09:46 PM.
Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:
1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."
2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: jace]
#1077729
12/22/23 10:00 PM
12/22/23 10:00 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
Dwalin2011
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
|
What if a group of top leaders agree that certain information can be given because it will not hurt anyone, or if a dying guy says "Give them my name for a few old crimes" I don't consider that ratting, Vito Genovese had guy who he would tell to talk to the FBI, but the guy would give nothing significant. The guy would report back to Genovese and tell hi what they seemed interested in. Genovese would use that info to see who might be pointing them at it. I think in the end, they (The Mafia) decide who is a rat, not us. In Ricca's case, the information he gave definitely hurt Cerone, even though Cerone had no choice but to accept it. If what Ricca did was not ratting just because he was the boss and had the supreme authority to decide who is a rat and who isn't, then by that logic Joe Massino could also say he isn't a rat because "the boss is the boss" and can do whatever he wants.
Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:
1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."
2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Dwalin2011]
#1077735
12/22/23 10:07 PM
12/22/23 10:07 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
|
OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
|
I don't know the exact particulars about that situation, but that aside, knowing what I do about the mechanics of these types of things, I'd have to say that Ricca was definitely NOT any type of informer or cooperator. I'm sure there were conversations held between Ricca, Cerone, Accardo and other top figures in their administration who vetted and pre-approved such a move for the "greater good" for the Outfit.
But if, as you say, a rat is a rat, then imo there is no excuse for Ricca either. If "for the greater good of the organization" is a "justifiable" excuse for giving someone up, then someone could argue that other excuses you listed above would be "valid" also. We don't know the "true" story behind this entire scenario or even the conversation that took place. We don't even know that anything close to what is purported to have happened, actually happened. Or even what Ricca "supposedly" said or didn't say, understand my thinking here Dwalin? So this is really all conjecture on all of our parts. Yet, Paul Ricca was a very highly respected mafioso, a boss no less. Over one of the most powerful crews in the U.S., not to mention that fact that he was also a card-carrying member of The National Commission. So I seriously doubt the context in which he said what he said (or even whether he said anything at all, let alone something along those lines.) Because if he did say something so off-color as that, or cajoled Cerone into taking the fall like that, boss or no boss, Paul Ricca woulda got hit right in the fucking head! Especially back in those days...So I take it all with a huge grain of salt.
Last edited by NYMafia; 12/22/23 10:08 PM.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: NYMafia]
#1077736
12/22/23 10:14 PM
12/22/23 10:14 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
Dwalin2011
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
|
We don't know the "true" story behind this entire scenario or even the conversation that took place. We don't even know that anything close to what is purported to have happened, actually happened. Or even what Ricca "supposedly" said or didn't say, understand my thinking here Dwalin?
So this is really all conjecture on all of our parts. Yet, Paul Ricca was a very highly respected mafioso, a boss no less. Over one of the most powerful crews in the U.S., not to mention that fact that he was also a card-carrying member of The National Commission.
So I seriously doubt the context in which he said what he said (or even whether he said anything at all, let alone something along those lines.)
Because if he did say something so off-color as that, or cajoled Cerone into taking the fall like that, boss or no boss, Paul Ricca woulda got hit right in the fucking head!
Especially back in those days...So I take it all with a huge grain of salt.
I understand what you are saying and agree we can't know what Ricca actually said in the meeting with other gangsters, but if he confirmed to prosecutors (as Toodoped said) the information about Cerone, then the thing is on record and became known to public at least after the trial. While I agree it's the mafia that decides what is acceptable for the organization, but if we apply the rigid logic of "no ratting whatever the circumstances" to every single gangster, then what Ricca did was at least controversial in my opinion. I don't mean to start an argument or anything like that, but that's what I think...
Last edited by Dwalin2011; 12/22/23 10:15 PM.
Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:
1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."
2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Dwalin2011]
#1077745
12/22/23 10:39 PM
12/22/23 10:39 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
|
OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
|
We don't know the "true" story behind this entire scenario or even the conversation that took place. We don't even know that anything close to what is purported to have happened, actually happened. Or even what Ricca "supposedly" said or didn't say, understand my thinking here Dwalin?
So this is really all conjecture on all of our parts. Yet, Paul Ricca was a very highly respected mafioso, a boss no less. Over one of the most powerful crews in the U.S., not to mention that fact that he was also a card-carrying member of The National Commission.
So I seriously doubt the context in which he said what he said (or even whether he said anything at all, let alone something along those lines.)
Because if he did say something so off-color as that, or cajoled Cerone into taking the fall like that, boss or no boss, Paul Ricca woulda got hit right in the fucking head!
Especially back in those days...So I take it all with a huge grain of salt.
I understand what you are saying and agree we can't know what Ricca actually said in the meeting with other gangsters, but if he confirmed to prosecutors (as Toodoped said) the information about Cerone, then the thing is on record and became known to public at least after the trial. While I agree it's the mafia that decides what is acceptable for the organization, but if we apply the rigid logic of "no ratting whatever the circumstances" to every single gangster, then what Ricca did was at least controversial in my opinion. I don't mean to start an argument or anything like that, but that's what I think... There is absolutely NO excuse for informing or ratting. But we don't know that about him....at all. As I say, I take ALL of that with a gigantic dose of salt where Ricca is concerned. For me, a lot of what has been said about many guys over the years, not just about this subject of ratting, (or not ratting,) but about a great many varied statements and things that guys supposedly did or said during their careers thats now become "gospel" to mob aficionados is a lot of hogwash. (but thats a topic for another day)
Last edited by NYMafia; 12/22/23 10:40 PM.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Dwalin2011]
#1077748
12/22/23 11:06 PM
12/22/23 11:06 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
jace
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
|
What if a group of top leaders agree that certain information can be given because it will not hurt anyone, or if a dying guy says "Give them my name for a few old crimes" I don't consider that ratting, Vito Genovese had guy who he would tell to talk to the FBI, but the guy would give nothing significant. The guy would report back to Genovese and tell hi what they seemed interested in. Genovese would use that info to see who might be pointing them at it. I think in the end, they (The Mafia) decide who is a rat, not us. In Ricca's case, the information he gave definitely hurt Cerone, even though Cerone had no choice but to accept it. If what Ricca did was not ratting just because he was the boss and had the supreme authority to decide who is a rat and who isn't, then by that logic Joe Massino could also say he isn't a rat because "the boss is the boss" and can do whatever he wants. I'm sorry Dwalin, but I see no comparison to what Massino did to this. He totally ratted after a conviction, and put a lot of his guys own prison, and even wore a wire in his cell, trying to get his underboss on tape.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Giacalone]
#1077794
12/23/23 02:01 PM
12/23/23 02:01 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
jace
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
|
I am with Toodoped on this one. This is an evil life and should not be celebrated. If you agree with that, you should also understand that the mob would still be flourishing if it weren't for the cooperators. You can debate until you're blue in the face about what type of people cooperators are, but you can't deny the facts. No one is rooting for the cooperators (who are also criminals and sociopaths), but rooting for the mob is just retarded. Not everyone in it is evil, that's silly. Bookies, numbers runners, even union guys, most are good. Who bets? Are they evil too? The rats tend to be the ones who were evil, yet they walk free, plus lie by saying what they are told to say for their deal to walk free. LE has always leaked stories to news reporters that exaggerate only the worst of the life, suckers eat it up as truth.
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: jace]
#1077795
12/23/23 02:25 PM
12/23/23 02:25 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 4,223
Giacalone
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 4,223
|
I am with Toodoped on this one. This is an evil life and should not be celebrated. If you agree with that, you should also understand that the mob would still be flourishing if it weren't for the cooperators. You can debate until you're blue in the face about what type of people cooperators are, but you can't deny the facts. No one is rooting for the cooperators (who are also criminals and sociopaths), but rooting for the mob is just retarded. Not everyone in it is evil, that's silly. Bookies, numbers runners, even union guys, most are good. Who bets? Are they evil too? The rats tend to be the ones who were evil, yet they walk free, plus lie by saying what they are told to say for their deal to walk free. LE has always leaked stories to news reporters that exaggerate only the worst of the life, suckers eat it up as truth. I never called the guys evil. I said the life was evil. There have been plenty of people who became part of the street who were essentially good guys
But you had to play it cool, had to do it your way Had to be a fool, had to throw it all away
|
|
|
Re: A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!...
[Re: Giacalone]
#1077799
12/23/23 03:49 PM
12/23/23 03:49 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
NYMafia
OP
|
OP

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 12,482
|
I am with Toodoped on this one. This is an evil life and should not be celebrated. If you agree with that, you should also understand that the mob would still be flourishing if it weren't for the cooperators. You can debate until you're blue in the face about what type of people cooperators are, but you can't deny the facts. No one is rooting for the cooperators (who are also criminals and sociopaths), but rooting for the mob is just retarded. Not everyone in it is evil, that's silly. Bookies, numbers runners, even union guys, most are good. Who bets? Are they evil too? The rats tend to be the ones who were evil, yet they walk free, plus lie by saying what they are told to say for their deal to walk free. LE has always leaked stories to news reporters that exaggerate only the worst of the life, suckers eat it up as truth. I never called the guys evil. I said the life was evil. There have been plenty of people who became part of the street who were essentially good guys Bingo! And in the old days, maybe not so much nowadays, but in the old days...back in the early 1900s thru the 1950s era, many guys grew up in a poverty few of us could even imagine today. So it might have not been a "pass" per se, but there was a damn good reason why many of them went into the line of "work" they did. In the year approaching 2024? Not so much!
|
|
|
|