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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1103822
10/29/24 12:27 PM
10/29/24 12:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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Why did Capone feel like he needed to be allowed to be part of Masseria's Family ?
Why not just kill Aiello and all his top guys like he did with the rest of his competition ?
Was Capone aware of the plot to kill Masseria ? And later Maranzano ?
First of all, although Capone and his organization was very powerful in Chicago, he was not about to go against and buck the Sicilian Mafia who operated dozens of highly structured "borgatas" all throughout the United States (with plenty of reinforcements back in Sicily should they have needed it.) By knocking out Aiello (without prior permission,) he essentially would have been challenging the entire Mafia as a whole, understand? For as strong as Capone may have been, he wasn't THAT strong. That would have amounted to nothing less than suicide for him and his followers. To answer your question as to 'why did Capone feel he needed to be allowed to be part of Masseria's Family' is simple. The answer to that is, "why not?" While the Sicilian Mafia maintained a presence in the City of Chicago, Capone would never, could never, completely control the city without competition from the Mafia. He could knock out the Irish Bugs Moran Gang and other 'independents,' but he knew the Mafia --- which was an international organization --- was much too powerful and too octopus-like to eradicate. So what's that old saying? "If you can't beat em, then join em." It was the smart chess move. He made what turned out to be a tremendously smart choice by throwing in with Joe Masseria. Because, ultimately, it led to his Mafia induction. Which, after the formation of Cosa Nostra, allowed him to become the "official" sole Mafia Representante over the entire Chicago area, as well as its outer territories....So, if you ask me, it was a genius move! Lastly, you ask, "was Capone aware of the plot to kill Masseria? And later Maranzano?" None of us were in that room when it was discussed, but my gut tells me no! For the simple reason that he wasn't involved because he wasn't needed to accomplish either one of those killings. And I would imagine that the perpetrators, Lucky Luciano and his confederates, would be sharp enough to play such deadly chess moves as quietly and surreptitiously as possible, no?? That only makes sense.
Last edited by NYMafia; 10/29/24 01:06 PM.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1103825
10/29/24 01:12 PM
10/29/24 01:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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Lastly, you ask, "was Capone aware of the plot to kill Masseria? And later Maranzano?"
None of us were in there room when it was discussed, but my guy tells me no! For the simple reason that he wasn't involved because he wasn't needed to accomplish either one of those killings. And I would imagine that the perpetrators, Lucky Luciano and his confederates, would be sharp enough to play such deadly chess moves as quietly and surreptitiously as possible, no?? That only makes sense.
Capone makes what is a good move joining Masseria and then his benefactor gets killed? And probably nobody clued him in on it Does Capone immediately start looking over his shoulder ? Does he believe Luciano or the others now at least temporarily on the clannish Maranzano Castellamare side, when tyhey tell him he's saf.That the remaining Chicago Maranzano/Aiello bunch won't take him out next ?
Good question. And one that nobody can answer...for sure! I don't believe he or others not connected in some way with those killings would know. But what I do believe is that messages were sent out almost immediately after the killings to placate those in fear of their lives, or others who were integral to the aftermath and 'well being' of the Italian underworld, such as other Family bosses throughout the country and, of course, that would include Capone as well.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: NYMafia]
#1103826
10/29/24 01:22 PM
10/29/24 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 409
Big_Tuna93
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 409
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I think it's pretty well documented that Capone was friendly with guys such as Lucky Luciano (there is legit footage of them together in their younger days). Taking out Masseria and Maranzano was a way of taking out the old guard to make LCN more of an intertwined across the country and was instrumental in forming the commission. I feel like Capone and maybe some other top guys in Chicago at the time were made aware of the plans, as it played a key role in Chicago being intertwined with the other 5 families for the next 5-6 decades. This is just my opinion.
Last edited by Big_Tuna93; 10/29/24 01:22 PM.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1103883
10/30/24 02:59 AM
10/30/24 02:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,482 Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,482
Underground
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I think it's pretty well documented that Capone was friendly with guys such as Lucky Luciano (there is legit footage of them together in their younger days). Taking out Masseria and Maranzano was a way of taking out the old guard to make LCN more of an intertwined across the country and was instrumental in forming the commission. I feel like Capone and maybe some other top guys in Chicago at the time were made aware of the plans, as it played a key role in Chicago being intertwined with the other 5 families for the next 5-6 decades. This is just my opinion. Thats a fact.
Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Turnbull]
#1103891
10/30/24 07:25 AM
10/30/24 07:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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Very nice article, NYM. The list of members and the chart are impressive. And thanks for the free ride--much appreciated. Thank you, Turnbull. And you're very welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the piece. And yes, this members chart is a real whopper, isn't it. Lol. It took a lot of research to uncover and organize all that data into a comprehensive structural hierarchy, and even more to design it. But in the end it was worth it, because this truly became a one-of-a-kind membership chart that I think really depicts the awesome size and 'strength' the Chicago Outfit once enjoyed. With 736 members listed and over 240 pics, I think it's safe to say that there has never been a chart undertaking of this magnitude before. It became a monster! Chicago is one of our larger charts...Thats why we posted it free. It's a showstopper we felt readers would really enjoy.
Last edited by NYMafia; 10/30/24 07:48 AM.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1103939
10/30/24 03:14 PM
10/30/24 03:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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That was the most understandable explanation I've seen of how Chicago became part of the mafia and of Capone in particular
The one question I have is why was it that Capone was kept out so long for being Neapolitan ,i.e. non Sicilian, while guys like Genovese(Neapolitan) and Costello(Calabrese ) seemed to be already included with Masseria.?
Was it because Capone was in Chicago while Genovese,Costello and the others were local NY guys ? And who was Torrio with -the Camorra or the Mafia before he went to Chicago?
Thank you, Havana. I’m glad you enjoyed this as much as you did. And I appreciate the vote of confidence in our work. To try and answer your question, “Why was it that Capone was kept out so long for being Neapolitan ,i.e. non Sicilian, while guys like Genovese(Neapolitan) and Costello(Calabrese ) seemed to be already included with Masseria.?” I think the best answer to your question is to say that Capone was originally mob-connected by his affiliation with La Camorra. It was his South Brooklyn Camorra superiors who first backed him, and later sent him out to Chicago. So he was always under that “umbrella” so to speak, as opposed to being “with” the Mafia, per se. So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld. Whereas Genovese, Costello and some other non-Sicilians remained in New York and became very early affiliates of the Sicilians, such as Salvatore Luciano and others. By the mid-late 1920s, Capone had become so powerful a figure that he was soon approached by NYC “boss of bosses” Joe Masseria as things heated up between he and Salvatore Maranzano, leader of the highly independent “Castellammarese” faction of the Mafia, who refused to bow down and capitulate to Masseria’s demands. Also remember, that by that point in time, Luciano, Genovese, Costello, Doto and many other “young bucks” had already aligned themselves with the Masseria Family and had become important members. So I believe this is really when Capone was first exposed to the Mafia and brought into the fold. And we know from accepted mob history that he was offered “membership” into the Mafia if he threw in with them (which of course he did.)
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1103942
10/30/24 04:09 PM
10/30/24 04:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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"To try and answer your question, “Why was it that Capone was kept out so long for being Neapolitan ,i.e. non Sicilian, while guys like Genovese(Neapolitan) and Costello(Calabrese ) seemed to be already included with Masseria.?”
I think the best answer to your question is to say that Capone was originally mob-connected by his affiliation with La Camorra. It was his South Brooklyn Camorra superiors who first backed him, and later sent him out to Chicago. So he was always under that “umbrella” so to speak, as opposed to being “with” the Mafia, per se.
So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld.
Whereas Genovese, Costello and some other non-Sicilians remained in New York and became very early affiliates of the Sicilians, such as Salvatore Luciano and others."
That answer makes perfect sense of what could have been seen as an inconsistancy. So I would guess that Torrio would have had same type but earlier Camorra based transfer to Chicago as Capone? Did Torrio ever become a member of Cosa Nostra ? Did he continue on as Camorra ? Was he ever offered a Cosa Nostra membership? Would he even have accepted a vMafia membership ?
Johnny Torrio, older than Capone, was said to have first been affiliated with the notorious "Five Points Gang" based in Lower Manhattan, headed by the legendary Paolo (Paul Kelly) Vacarelli. It is believed that at some point in time, Torrio aligned with the Calabrese, Frankie Yale in Brooklyn, and Capone, from that neck of the woods anyway, soon became Torrio's close aide. Then, at some point, they were both later "sent" out to Chicago to aide fellow Calabrian underworld leader, Jim Colosimo....and the rest is history! PS: And yes, just like Capone, Torrio was 'officially' initiated into the ranks of New York's Masseria Family. Years later, Torrio relocated back to New York City (residing in the Bay Ridge section of Brooklyn, until his later death from natural causes), where he transferred his membership, realigning as a soldier under the Genovese Family flag.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1103944
10/30/24 04:25 PM
10/30/24 04:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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"So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld."
What I meant by inconsistancy was that Masseria would be inconsistant in rejecting keeping Capone out while admitting Costello,Genovese,Valachi,Bender,Doto ,etc So it wasn't so much that Capone was Neapolitan,as much as he was farther away and was a Camorrrista and that's where Masseria previously saw Capone's loyaly to be before offering him membership if he got rid of Aiello.
Capone had become such a force of nature, that at some point, it behooved Joe Masseria to approach Capone and "woo" him -- for lack of a better word. Aiello and his Mafia Family, based in the City of Chicago, were staunch supporters of the "Castellammarese" who were largely viewed among may Sicilian mafiosi as ballsy "heroes" for bucking and "going to the mattresses" against Masseria, who they viewed as greedy and a tyrant, understand? Aiello had been sending money and men to augment Maranzano and his troops in their fight against Masseria and his forces. Subsequently, he had become a major thorn in Masseria's side that needed to be removed. Al Capone turned out to be Masseria's solution to the problem. In one fell swoop, Masseria eliminated his enemy and was able to secure the Chicago territory for the Castellammarese faction.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: NYMafia]
#1103949
10/30/24 06:37 PM
10/30/24 06:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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"So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld."
What I meant by inconsistancy was that Masseria would be inconsistant in rejecting keeping Capone out while admitting Costello,Genovese,Valachi,Bender,Doto ,etc So it wasn't so much that Capone was Neapolitan,as much as he was farther away and was a Camorrrista and that's where Masseria previously saw Capone's loyaly to be before offering him membership if he got rid of Aiello.
Capone had become such a force of nature, that at some point, it behooved Joe Masseria to approach Capone and "woo" him -- for lack of a better word. Aiello and his Mafia Family, based in the City of Chicago, were staunch supporters of the "Castellammarese" who were largely viewed among may Sicilian mafiosi as ballsy "heroes" for bucking and "going to the mattresses" against Masseria, who they viewed as greedy and a tyrant, understand? Aiello had been sending money and men to augment Maranzano and his troops in their fight against Masseria and his forces. Subsequently, he had become a major thorn in Masseria's side that needed to be removed. Al Capone turned out to be Masseria's solution to the problem. In one fell swoop, Masseria eliminated his enemy and was able to secure the Chicago territory for the Castellammarese faction. So Torrio also started out as a Camorrista, and ended up a mafioso.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: NYMafia]
#1104070
10/31/24 09:51 PM
10/31/24 09:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 27,275
Hollander
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 27,275
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"So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld."
What I meant by inconsistancy was that Masseria would be inconsistant in rejecting keeping Capone out while admitting Costello,Genovese,Valachi,Bender,Doto ,etc So it wasn't so much that Capone was Neapolitan,as much as he was farther away and was a Camorrrista and that's where Masseria previously saw Capone's loyaly to be before offering him membership if he got rid of Aiello.
Capone had become such a force of nature, that at some point, it behooved Joe Masseria to approach Capone and "woo" him -- for lack of a better word. Aiello and his Mafia Family, based in the City of Chicago, were staunch supporters of the "Castellammarese" who were largely viewed among may Sicilian mafiosi as ballsy "heroes" for bucking and "going to the mattresses" against Masseria, who they viewed as greedy and a tyrant, understand? Aiello had been sending money and men to augment Maranzano and his troops in their fight against Masseria and his forces. Subsequently, he had become a major thorn in Masseria's side that needed to be removed. Al Capone turned out to be Masseria's solution to the problem. In one fell swoop, Masseria eliminated his enemy and was able to secure the Chicago territory for the Castellammarese faction. So Torrio also started out as a Camorrista, and ended up a mafioso. Colosimo Torrio , Yale and Capone were camorristi..
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Hollander]
#1104087
11/01/24 12:33 AM
11/01/24 12:33 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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"So Capone owed his fealty — and he basically always operated — within the realm of the Napolitani/Calabrese underworld."
What I meant by inconsistancy was that Masseria would be inconsistant in rejecting keeping Capone out while admitting Costello,Genovese,Valachi,Bender,Doto ,etc So it wasn't so much that Capone was Neapolitan,as much as he was farther away and was a Camorrrista and that's where Masseria previously saw Capone's loyaly to be before offering him membership if he got rid of Aiello.
Capone had become such a force of nature, that at some point, it behooved Joe Masseria to approach Capone and "woo" him -- for lack of a better word. Aiello and his Mafia Family, based in the City of Chicago, were staunch supporters of the "Castellammarese" who were largely viewed among may Sicilian mafiosi as ballsy "heroes" for bucking and "going to the mattresses" against Masseria, who they viewed as greedy and a tyrant, understand? Aiello had been sending money and men to augment Maranzano and his troops in their fight against Masseria and his forces. Subsequently, he had become a major thorn in Masseria's side that needed to be removed. Al Capone turned out to be Masseria's solution to the problem. In one fell swoop, Masseria eliminated his enemy and was able to secure the Chicago territory for the Castellammarese faction. So Torrio also started out as a Camorrista, and ended up a mafioso. Colosimo Torrio , Yale and Capone were camorristi.. Thats correct, all of them were.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: NYMafia]
#1104105
11/01/24 10:03 AM
11/01/24 10:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 174
Havana
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 174
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And it's not a coincidence the Chicago Outfit chart coincides with 'La Camorra Week."
...It all ties in. When will you put out what you have on the Navy Street and Coney Island Camorra Families And will you have anything on the Camorra gang in Philadelphia? And the leader of the Camorra in Philadelphia who I once read might have been a big shot in the Camorra
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1104148
11/01/24 08:56 PM
11/01/24 08:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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And it's not a coincidence the Chicago Outfit chart coincides with 'La Camorra Week."
...It all ties in. When will you put out what you have on the Navy Street and Coney Island Camorra Families And will you have anything on the Camorra gang in Philadelphia? And the leader of the Camorra in Philadelphia who I once read might have been a big shot in the Camorra Havana, as I mentioned earlier, I was in the middle of working on an article for La Camorra Week. Well, I'm happy to report its now complete and gone for final design. We're pointing towards Sunday for its release.
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: NYMafia]
#1104152
11/01/24 10:50 PM
11/01/24 10:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 174
Havana
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 174
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And it's not a coincidence the Chicago Outfit chart coincides with 'La Camorra Week."
...It all ties in. When will you put out what you have on the Navy Street and Coney Island Camorra Families And will you have anything on the Camorra gang in Philadelphia? And the leader of the Camorra in Philadelphia who I once read might have been a big shot in the Camorra Havana, as I mentioned earlier, I was in the middle of working on an article for La Camorra Week. Well, I'm happy to report its now complete and gone for final design. We're pointing towards Sunday for its release. Thanks for the update. Like the Yale and Chicago Outfit articlres,so confident the whole series will be excellent
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Re: FREE: The Chicago 'Outfit' (circa 1950-1970)
[Re: Havana]
#1104179
11/02/24 12:08 PM
11/02/24 12:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 11,361
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And it's not a coincidence the Chicago Outfit chart coincides with 'La Camorra Week."
...It all ties in. When will you put out what you have on the Navy Street and Coney Island Camorra Families And will you have anything on the Camorra gang in Philadelphia? And the leader of the Camorra in Philadelphia who I once read might have been a big shot in the Camorra Havana, as I mentioned earlier, I was in the middle of working on an article for La Camorra Week. Well, I'm happy to report its now complete and gone for final design. We're pointing towards Sunday for its release. Thanks for the update. Like the Yale and Chicago Outfit articlres,so confident the whole series will be excellent Thank you, Havana. I'm gonna try my best not to disappoint.
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