Just figured I'd throw this in there and see what kind of answers I would get. If Fredo had betrayed Sonny the way he did Michael would Sonny have had him killed?

I would say no. While Santino was more hot headed, I got the feeling that he was more about Family than anything. Don't get me wrong, Michael loved his family, but I think he was more willing to do whatever he had to in order to keep his power and position. Maybe Sonny would have given Fredo a beating, but I don't think he would have killed him.

I think Sonny would have given him a Carlo-type beating and then sent him off to Vegas and had a very tight leash on him. Michael was less emotional, less compassionate. Sonny wasn't stupid, but Michael would probably categorize Sonny as having a soft spot.

Fredo has the opposite weakness as Santino did. He was callow and weak where Sonny was strong and rageful. Sonny would probibly get so angry, he would probibly slap him around as was prevously stated.

I doubt he had the cold pre-disposition to beable to murder his brother. I also doubt Santino was as ruthless as Michael, he wasn't as power hungry as Micahel and therefore wouldn't ascribe to Michael's cold unforgiving attitude. Nor would he necessarily only see one type of punishment would be required for anybody who even remotely betrayed him.

Interesting question. I dont think the betrayal was the sole reason Mike had Fredo whacked. I think the major factor was the attempted assasination on Mike and Fredos part in the attempt, albeit unknowning (according to Fredo "I didn't know it was going to be a hit). Remember Mike said to Carlo "You have to answer for Santino" Had Mike been the one ambushed at the causeway, I might think that Sonny would have been hotheaded enough to seek revenge, and if Fredo was involved, he might have done him in.

I just can't see Santino having the ability(to use that word) to have his own brother killed. I'm thinking Santino would've just beat Fredo ala Carlo. But not having him killed.

I think the more logical question to ask is would Fredo have even betrayed Sonny...and the answer is probably not. Wasn't Santino the oldest son? Therefore there would not have been the jealousy and envy that was directed toward kid brother Michael at having been what Fredo percieved as 'stepped over.'

Had Sonny remained alive to one day run the family, things would've been completely different, there probably would've been virtually NO family after a few years, and therefore no one in their right mind would've even bothered to approach Fredo to 'help with negotiations'.

Fredo would not have had the opportunity to betray Sonny..and therefore Sonny would not have had to make the choice of having Fredo killed.

Also...I do not agree that Michaels motivation in having Fredo killed was "...whatever he had to in order to keep his power and position...". He had the power and position and allowing Fredo to live would not have changed that.

By doing away with Fredo, Michael was doing what he needed do to protect the Family. Not himself...the FAMILY.

Apple

Excellent point.

Of course, had Fredo's "betrayal" of Michael been motivated by his thinking that what Roth wanted him to do would have been good for the family -- had it been simple stupidity rather than jealousy -- then it's possible that Sonny might have perceived him as a future danger that needed to be eliminated.

I'm betting neither Sonny NOR Michael would've eliminated Fredo based on a perception alone...he would have to have actually COMMITTED an act of betrayal.
Anyway...the way Sonny eliminated Fredo was to send him off to cushy Vegas; once he proved he wasn't even equipped to defend his own father in a shooting.

Nice try, plaw...but this is fiction not a pre-emptive war, and it isn't a real life fight against terrorism.

Apple

Fredo unquestionably committed an act of betrayal.

Had his motivation been jealousy and a desire to supplant Michael, he had to go.

Had his motivation been to help the family because he was too stupid to realize he was committing an act of betrayal, he still had to go.

So even though he would not have been jealous of Sonny as the head of the family, Sonny may still have viewed his stupidity as a danger. Not simply eliminating Fredo pre-emptively because of his stupidity, though. Fredo wiuld have to have actually done something dangerous that was caused by his stupidity.

(I think I liked you better when you were Diane Keaton, BTW)

Like Apple said, Fredo wouldnt have had the same motive to betrey his older brother as he would his younger brother, but sooner or later Fredo's stupidity would have led to Sonny and/or his family in danger. Then I think Sonny's initial reaction would be to beat the ever-loving shit out of him. But Fredo isnt getting any smarter, so it would probably happen again, in which case Fredo would have to go.

Sonny would have never killed Fredo. Vito would be looking down from mafia heaven in disgust.

Congrats to Krlea, who posted a question that I don't believe has ever been asked before! Will wonders never cease?
I'm with everyone else here: Sonny probably would have beat up Fredo but not killed him. Temperament: Sonny was all action, rage, do-it-now, but once the rage passed, he wasn't one to brood. Michael had plenty of rage that he contained, and expressed in an unforgiving nature backed by complex plots that he rationalized as necessary to provide safety to his family and himself.
But Apple raises the most intriguing point: would Fredo ever have betrayed his older brother, since he probably wouldn't have resented Sonny the way he resented Michael? I'd add that Sonny, the more emotional of the three, might--just might--have been more sensitive to Fredo's feelings, and made more concessions to his sensibilities. An older brother can be generous to a younger one who's less competent, but a younger brother like Michael would look down on his older brother and respect him less--which is just what happened.

Sonny would not have had Fredo killed, and Fredo never would have betrayed Santino. The relationship between the two was undoubtedly different than the relationship between Fredo and Michael.

But here's what I think: Had Fredo been contrite and said to Michael, "I'm sorry. I didn't know it was going to be a hit." and left it at that, perhaps that could have been the end of it.

But Fredo kept at it. He kept expressing his jealousy and rage at being "Stepped over." AND -- and I think this is crucial -- he KNEW the senator at the hearings was in Roth's pocket. HOW DID HE KNOW???????

This would indicate to Michael that Fredo -- even during that whole confrontation -- was lying, knew more than he chose to tell, and was into Roth DEEPLY. He could no longer be trusted. And in that type of a world, you're either with us or against us. No in between.

I'm of the opinion that Fredo never would have betrayed the family if Sonny was alive and was the Don. Fredo felt stepped over because his younger brother became the Don instead of him. If his OLDER brother was the Don, he would have gone along with it since that's how it was "supposed" to be.

Fredo signed his own death warrant with the "It's not the way I wanted it!!" rant at Michael. First of all, that was of course a direct challege to Michael, and just as important it was a direct slap at Vito's judgment.

Once Fredo blurted that out, Michael knew he was never going to be satisfied with his role in the family and would always be ripe for being manipulated by an enemy of the family.

I think up to that point if Fredo had come clean, Michael would have let him off - cast him out of the family business for sure, but at least let him live.

But once he delivers that rant, he's done. Michael gives the message to Al Neri right after that. He's dead meat.

Back to the original topic, if Sonny were still alive, Fredo wouldn't have been "stepped over" so it would have been a moot point. But Sonny of course has that infamous insane temper. If Fredo had betrayed him again and again as he did with Michael, I think eventually he might have done it. But it never woulda come to that.

I don't know what Sonny would have done. But if Fredo was head of the Family, he would be betrayed so easily by the underlings of his organization. I mean once they know he lacks being smart

hell no sonny would never kill his blood for anything maybe beat him up not kill him. Odogg young black and just don't give fuck.

Actually, the question of whether Sonny would've killed Fredo is sort of a useless one...because the guess of about 100% of the respondents would be no, of course he wouldn't.

But until we saw that Michael had Fredo killed, none of us ever in our wildest imaginations thought he would actually do it.

So sure, we're all going to give poor, departed Santino the benefit of the doubt and say no, of course not he'd NEVER do such a thing.

Because he didn't live long enough for Fredo to have given him a reason to do it.

Apple

Actually Apple, I agree with almost all the members of this board. Sonny would never have killed Fredo. He was too family oriented. Michael--you could see his ruthlessness right from the time they shot Vito. Nothing was gonna stop him from being on top and staying there. Even family. He would have had Kay killed too if she had tried to take his kids. He had no family loyalty. Only loyalty to himself. Even though he was a good don, his family wasn't his priority. (not including his kids, of course).

Rosie, rarely have I seen on this board such incredibly incorrect statements as the ones you have just made.

Michael had no intention of 'going to the top and staying there'. Even when his father was shot. It was his destiny, how things worked out, but not how he intended them.

Michael's 'loyalty' was not simply to 'himself'. True, his business 'Family' did take a priority over his true family...his wife and children. This is what alienated Kay and eventually drove her to leave him and TRY to take the children with her. By the time of GFII, virtually his entire existence was devoted to the Corleone Family...the one he inherited from his father. When he goes to his mother for that little talk, he is for once at a loss on how to repair everything that is unraveling around him. At this moment he's tragic...and far from ruthless.

When he makes the decision to have Fredo killed...he orders that it not be done until after the death of his mother. Had Michael's loyalty been only to himself, Fredo would've been escorted out of the boathouse and blown away right then & there. But he wanted to spare his mother the agony of losing another son. Even though Fredo's actions very nearly caused his own death.

Michael Corleone is one of the most extremely complicated, ultimately tragic figures in cinematic history. Yes, he did some ruthless things. But to simply dismiss him as ruthless, and to state that his loyalty was only to himself is a gross misinterpretation of the character.

Apple

In my opinion, I believe that Sonny would NOT have killed Fredo. I do believe that Sonny was too much a family man, whereas Michael was not. Sure, the life was thrust upon him, but from the beginning of GF1, you can see how he’s doing everything possible to distance himself even from his own family…almost as though he’s embarrassed….

At Connie’s wedding, he tells Kay, “that’s my family Kay, that’s not me”
He dates and marries a WASP, the likes of which the family had not seen before
Once Vito is shot, he tells his father, “I wasn’t here before, but I’m with you now” (indicating his extreme distance of everything “family orientated”

Sonny had great love for his family. When he found out that Connie was getting beat up by Carlo, he went after him with a vengeance. He stopped short of killing him because he knew it would hurt his pregnant sister. Evidenced by the scene regarding talking business at the table, when Connie points out that papa never did that, and Carlo interrupts, Sonny has an outburst only calmed by Mama Corleone, and when Carlo tries to push the subject further, Sonny shuts him out…..

These are just a few examples of Sonny’s loyalty to his family, his involvement in every detail, whereas Michael for the most part, could not get far enough away…I believe that once he (Michael) committed himself fully, Fredo was nothing more than a constant bumbling annoyance….

I agree that Sonny was loyal to his family.

In that case...I cannot help but wonder how Sonny would react to Fredo's betrayal of his own brother, his own Family.

The general agreement seems to be that Fredo would not have betrayed Sonny in the way he betrayed Michael...since it was rooted in jealousy at having been 'stepped over' by his younger brother.

However, if Fredo had it in him to turn traitor to Michael, at the mere dangling of a carrot of 'something in it for him'...then it should be considered that had Sonny lived, he may have eventually done it to him, too. Remember it was Sonny to sent Fredo off to Vegas after his bumbling of Vito's shooting. It was Sonny who got Fredo out of the way, and gave no indication that he would ever bring him back to take an active part in the business. There's no indication that Sonny would've treated Fredo any differently than Michael did, having him pick up people at airports and whatever else it was Fredo complained about. Even though Sonny was the OLDER brother...Fredo may have eventually succumbed to the same envy, the same jealousy that he held toward Michael. ("...I can handle things I'm smart - not like everyone says - not dumb, smart and I want respect!...")

And someone like Hyman Roth or Barzini just might have come along to capitalize on it.

So while we are all so confident that 'family guy' Sonny would NEVER have had Fredo killed...let's once again keep in mind that he didn't live long enough for 'traitor guy' Fredo to give him a reason to.

Apple

I agree with what Apple says about this matter and I'd like to add something else. I always thought that this subject is pointless whether Sonny would have killed Fredo if he was in Mike's shoes. The reason is, how you answer this question:
Would Sonny have stayed alive long enough to be a successful Don and provoked Hymen Roth or Barzini? I say even if he'd survived that time, he eventually would have gotten himself killed by making some other irrational crazy decision. The whole point was to show us how he wouldn't make a good Don and it doesn't matter what not a good Don would have done to Fredo, because it would have been wrong. Traitor must die.

At the New Year's Eve party in Cuba, we all see Michael's intensely emotional reaction to the realization that his own brother was the traitor in his Family.

Can any of us imagine the reaction of Sonny under the same circumstances? I doubt he would've even been able to keep his cool long enough to get information from Fredo.

If we're going to ponder whether or not Sonny would've had Fredo killed...then it's just not that simple...we have to think about these other things too.

Apple

I really can't picture Sonny passing through that toll station without getting killed. Also Connie's reaction toward the matter that is shown in the third part is interesting. Sure enough she'd known that Mike ordered to death of Fredo. After all she was smart enough to figure who ordered to death of Carlo and others. She seems to understand how things work out in Cosa Nostra. Killing Fredo does not seem right in our everyday life but it is justified in Mafia. I can't blame Michael for that.

For all of the talk of Sonny's legendary temper, the one time you think he would personally take a hand, he didn't.

When he found out that Paulie was the traitor, he waited. Paulie got to the house, Sonny made conversation, then told Clemenza, he didn't want to see him again. That's as smooth as the old man and Mikey.

Speaking of Mikey, there were several times that he lost his temper, despite his reputation. Sometimes, I think that Mike and Sonny had more in common than was thought.

Michael had to kill Fredo because it was Business-kill or be killed. Once Fredo talked with Johnny Ola - that was it, he was out of the "family" - he knew that. In Cuba he told Michael how uspet and hurt he was because they weren't close enough and because Michael took care of him - MIchael says that's how pop wanted it - did Vito tell Fredo, that Michael would head the family? Was this truly a surprise? I also wonder, did Michael just not trust Fredo at all? Couldn't he have kept Fredo around the top instead of isolating him?

Let's analyze.

Fredo had already proven himself disloyal to the Family by taking Moe Green's side in the buyout meeting years earlier. While failing to see the business end of Michael's intentions...he also went straight over Mike's head by asking Tom to speak to their father. Complete ignorance and to top it off, disrespect.

Years earlier than that, Fredo clearly bungled at the attempted killing of Don Vito. While he may not have been able to prevent the actual shooting, his clumsiness with the gun allowed BOTH hitment to flee without even a shot fired at them. In addition to this, he sat and wept over his wounded papa, instead of screaming for assistance. Even if you think a person is DEAD...you do SOMETHING!!!

Remember again it was SONNY, not Michael...who sent Fredo off to Vegas for a rest.

I think Fredo proved several times over the years - to Vito and BOTH his brothers - that he was unfit to be kept 'around the top'.

Apple

Fredo definitely had more than three strikes as far as family loyalty was concerned:

1) Botched his job to protect Vito during the assassination attempt on the street;

2) Directly undermined Michael in the meeting with Moe Greene. Since Michael was newly-installed in the role of the Don at that time, it was more crucial that outsiders like Moe Greene take him seriously in that role, and Fredo trying to go over his head to Tom Hagen and to Vito completely undercut that. Then, of course, Michael's direct warning: "Don't ever go against the family, ever."

3) Whatever his role was in setting up the hit attempt on Michael at the Tahoe lake house, takes the issue to a new level. It's not just a problem of Fredo being an annoyance any more, now it's life and death.

4) The episode in Cuba, clearly Fredo is still lying to Michael about his involvement with Roth/Johnny Ola. He denies to Michael's face that he even knows them, then of course at the sex club, he blurts out to Geary, "Oh yeah, Johnny Ola knows all these places," so obviously Fredo and Johnny Ola are old whore-chasing buddies from way back. That, of course, is the moment when Michael knows Fredo has to go.

Then the scene at the boathouse, Michael gives Fredo one last chance to come clean and spill the beans on the Roth operation, but still Fredo is hemming and hawing and covering up. The last straw.


If Sonny had lived, and Fredo betrayed the family again and again and again, the way he ultimately did with Michael, I think certainly Sonny would have had Fredo iced.