Wait a second!.. Just hear me out..

After Vito gets shot, Tom gets picked up by Sollozzo. He tells tom to talk to Sonny and try to make the deal. Afterwards, there are a few instances where Tom does just what Sollozzo told him to do - he encourages Sonny to make the deal and not go after Sollozzo. I know this is nit-picking, but Tom was sort of acting on Sollozzo's behalf, and I don't know if he ever told Sonny and the rest of the family that Sollozzo wanted him to help make the deal.

I know that when Sollozzo calls Sonny, he tells him that Tom will be released with a proposition. Was that the proposition? Otherwise, I don't see why Tom would try to influence Sonny's decision in Sollozzo's favor.

Anyways, what the heck was Sollozzo thinking? That as soon as he killed Vito, the Corleones would start doing business with him? Hah! Think again, Sollozzo!!

No, Tom was not going against The Corleone's or acting on behalf of Sollozzo. What Tom was doing was acting as The Corleone Consigliere and advising what, at that moment, was the best move for The Corleone's. Tom realized two things : 1) That Sonny was too much of a hothead and that the war would linger on too long if Sonny had his way and 2) With Vito in the hospital, lying near death, The Corleone's political connections were nill because Vito was the one whom these politicians trusted and would deal with. Remember Tom's advice to Sonny " If the old man dies, you make the deal." And he was right in making that assertion. Tom's calculations were good ones for what was happening at the moment. He was looking out for The Corleone's best interests. It was the best plan to allow The Corleone's to at least survive....that was until Michael realized that The Family was in serious trouble and came up with the Sollozzo Hit Plan.


Don Cardi

Everything you say is true, Don Cardi. But my point is, did Tom ever come out and say, "Look Sollozzo wants me to help him make the deal with you, Sonny." Or did he keep that secret, and try to influence Sonny to make the deal? (Which, you're right, was the best thing for the family, and he may have advised Sonny to do so anyway, even without Sollozzo's interference.)

Like I said... I know it's nit-picking.

Wow, this is an interesting post. I'd have to agree that no Tom was not following Sollozzo.

I know that you are not talking about the book but it might be nice to know that in the book Tom does tell Sonny how persuasive Sollozzo was being. In the book after Sollozzo finds out Vito is still alive, his intent is to kill Tom, because he is no longer needed. So instead of being killed Tom lied to Sollozzo leading him to believe he will convince Sonny to go through with the deal. The book also states that Tom told Sonny this and he felt very guilty about pretending to go along with Sollozzo in the first place.

Great question! I never would have that of that and am glad you posted it.

Thats one of the main reasons he picked up Tom. Sollozzo knew that Sonny would search high and low looking for him,sending all of his men out on the streets.Sure he would have to lay low for a while, but Tom would soon see that the war was costing them a lot of money. Tom would have to stop Sonny, being as thats his job, and by Sollozzo catching Tom, he could prove to him that agreeing was the smart move. Hell everyone knew that already.Sollozzo hoped that Tom would calm Sonny down much quicker and get him to agree faster.

Thanks, krlea. One of these days, I'll get around to reading the book! I'm sure it explains a lot of things that the movies don't.

There's a deleted scene in which Tom enters the Corleone compound after Sollozzo releases him. He says to Sonny, "Boy, if I ever argue before the Supreme Court, it won't be as hard as I worked with the Turk today," or something to that effect--indicating that he faked his enthusiasm for the deal so he could escape Sollozzo's clutches and get back to helping Sonny. And, in the novel, he flat-out tells Sonny he lied to Sollozzo about how enthusiastic both he and Sonny were for the deal.
That said, Tom did urge Sonny to go for the deal--but only if the Don died. I don't believe Tom's loyalty was ever in question, then or later.

I could see what you are saying Mickey and it is an interesting point. But as Turnbull pointed out, he was trying to get the hell out of there. He must have been thinking that that was possibly his only way of getting out in one piece. As Don Cardi pointed out, Sonny was a hot head and Tom had a heck of a job trying to counter act him and outweigh his temper and try to shake some reason into him.

Ironically I think it was Tom's contention that a political solution and a stalemate may allow them to get some time and devise a more solid plan of action or at least wait for a great opportunity to strike. Likewise, Tom acknowledged that the limitations of Sonny's leadership based upon his hotheaded-impulivness would perhaps goad action out of the Tattaglias, who had Solozzo's back. Either move would perhaps cause a great war and greatly fuck up the family and even perhaps lead to the quick and untimely death of Vito. He was doing what was in the best interest of the family and giving Solozzo a reasonable concession here or there is a central strategy in negotiating in general. You gotta remember he wasn't a wartime consigliere, he was primarily a lawyer.

Tom Hagen is not on the muscle end of the family so he was obeyin Sollazo until he got out of there. That is why there is the phrase "nothing personal, just business". Even though they shot the Don, if they didnt make the deal the other families would have tried to wipe out the Corleone family. Hagen knew they couldnt afford a stalemate and the only way to stay in the game would be to go with Sollazo's deal. Even after Don Vito had been shot he agreed to make the deal because he knew if he didnt more people would be hurt in the family. Tom Hagen was the most loyal person in the family. (Also for side reference Sollazo told Hagen "Well that's bad luck for me,
and bad luck for you if you don't make that deal!", that threat meant they would be promblems for Tom and the Corleone family if Hagen didnt convince Sonny to make the deal.)ANother way of thinking about it is if Tom would have told SOnny "Sollazo wanted me to ask you to make the deal" would SOnny do it. Sorry to say he was hard headed just hearing Sollazo's name would be him deny the deal/

interesting topic. When Sollozzo hears that the Don is alive, you say he was on the verge of killing Tom? He would only create more problems for himself if he did that. Plus if Sonny went for the deal they would have no political connections if the Don died

Right! It was in Sollozzo's interest to keep Tom alive, since he saw that both Sonny and Tom were hot for his deal. With Tom alive, he'd have an advocate for his deal. With Tom dead, he'd provide more fuel for Sonny's vengeance.
Another reason: Sollozzo had to know that Tom was an advocate for diplomacy, not violence ("I know you're not in on the muscle end of the family, Tom"). Sollozzo knew that Tom would continue to be a voice for negotiation, not retaliation--which would give Sollozzo more time to plan another attack on the Don.
As for the Don's political connections: Not all of them would have disappeared if he'd died. As Puzo pointed out in the novel: they still had houses to build, kids to put through college...they still needed Mob payoffs. If the Don had died, Sonny still would have held some political connections--and Sollozzo might have been able to negotiate for them in a stronger position than if the Don were alive.

I think the important thing to consider here is that Tom was "not a wartime consigliere" as was stated by Micheal later. He wanted to do whatever he could to avoid a full out war. In that sense he and Sonny were like opposites with Micheal somewhere in the middle.

Tom told The Don he thought they should make the deal before Vito was ever shot. After he was shot he knew Sollozo was making the right suggestion but knew Sonny wouldn't go for it (or Luca Brasi, as he said in the car) because of hot headedness.

I don't think he went against the family he was just a lot less effected in a personal sense by the Don's attempted murder. He was still able to think of things in a business sense were all Sonny wanted to do was kill kill kill in anger. That's why Tom made such a great lawyer.

remeber one thing about Hagen; he had advised the Don that they should get into the heroin business because if they did not do so at that point, the other families would eventually (5 or ten years down the line) they (the other families) would be have amassed a lot of money and would be able to buy more politicians, more protection and come after the Corleones. In the novel, I remember the Don thinking something in his head about Hagen (or Sollozo??) when Hagen suggested the move into the drug business.

Welcome, Juan! I think what you're remembering is that, after Hagen made his speech about the other families getting into the drug business if the Corleones didn't, the Don "seemed enormously impressed. Hagen was encouraged: "Maybe the Don would go for it." But then the Don rebuked him: "Do you have it in your notes that Sollozzo made his living before the war from prostitution? As the Tattaglias do now. Write that down before you forget it." The Don was rebuking Tom for not mentioning Sollozzo's having been in the prostitution business. That was a prejudice that the Don held--"he was notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex." That's when Tom knew that the Don would never go for Sollozzo's deal.

In part II - I think around, the Senate Committee thing, when Michael asks Tom if he was moving to Las VEgas with his wife, kids and mistress to run the hotel, or something like that.
Tom says no, he was offered but turned it down and asks Michael, something like do I have to tell your everytime I turn down an offer.
That was kinda suspicious to me - yes, I would think if we are "family" , you would tell me if someone approaches you to go against me. Anyway that scene kinda made me wonder if Tom wanted to get out - One last thing - did Michael feel that close to Tom, like I felt he never really trusted him, because he was not a Sicilian?

The job offers weren't asking Tom to go against the family. They were just job offers to run hotels and other normal legitimate things. A man in Tom's position and with his education would have received plenty of those.

Michael felt closer to Tom than anyone else at that point. He trusted him. With that being said, Michael trusting anyone is not as you or I would trust someone. With everything that Michael has been through, he was very paranoid of everyone including family. Remember his brother was killed, first wife was murdered, his second wife aborted their baby, and his brother had betrayed him. This was not the life Michael wanted and he wasn't happy with it, although he was making the best of what he could. Michael learned to never let his guard down. With that he questioned Tom, I feel because he was afraid of losing the last caring person in his life.


Tom might have wanted out. He saw Michael's paranoia. He saw that Michael resisted his advice. I'm sure any man would have thougt about leaving for a legitimate income at that point. Hell Michael wanted to be legit too. Easier said than done. I do not, however, believe that Tom would have left Michael. He turned down the jobs and he felt loyalty to his family, which was Michael.

Tom loved Michael and Michael loved Tom as much as he could allow himself too. Michael was always a reserved person and he continued to be. He didn't show his love to people the same way other members of the family did. We saw that in the first Godfather as well.