The shrill tone of many of the political debates on these boards has pretty much driven me away from anything controversial, and now I see Plaw is also thinking about retiring.

I would propose that this thread be used by people of whatever political stripe to discuss when, where and how they were persuaded to change their point of view from one belief to another.

It would especially be interesting for people who are of one "stripe" to talk about things they have been persuaded are correct by someone of another "stripe."

A personal example is my belief that affirmative action is nomething that should be phased out. I am an unabashed liberal, but I have been persuaded (not by some scraming maniac) that the idea is fundamentally unsound despite the good intentions it had behind it.

So// any "conservatives" out there against the war in Iraq? Any pro life liberals?

Let the games begin

Unless I'm reading this wrong...don't you mean 'pro choice Conservatives...'??

Of which I am one, by the way.

While abortion itself is ALWAYS a tragic event, I've always felt that in many cases it is the necessary and wisest option. My only problem with the issue is that over the years it's deteriorated into the completely selfish, self-centered and one-sided view of "..a woman's RIGHT to choose.."

How's that for an opener, dontomasso.

Apple

Good one Apple, and I made the appropriate edit.

I am a pro choice liberal. I am also a religious liberal. I have been one who never liked to put labels on anything. I guess we all have to be considered republican or democratice, at least just in the eyes of the voting system. In my life I have supported issues on both sides. I have voted for republican candidates. I hate it when I hear on the news how something is being presented to congrerss or the senate and all you hear is it's a republican or a democratic backed bill. Why can't it just be a bill for the people, and leave party allegiance out of it? I don't understand all the talk of conservatives are the only ones who are religious or what not. I'm being deadly serious. I love God, I have gone to church since I was a child, so does this mean I'm not a liberal? I believe in a woman's right to choose. I don't believe in same sex marraige. Whether my personal preference means that my government should make laws banning what I believe in is what I don't get. I think people tend to think with their heart when it comes to issues. Sure, abortion is wrong in some eyes. But I don't think the government should have the right to mandate what a woman who finds herself in a desperate situation should do. I don't see myself ever supporting a same sex marraige, but why should the fact that this is what I believe mean that there needs to be a constitutional amendment banning it?

I think it's been stated numerous times. Everyone has their passion for what they believe. I say God bless you, and don't give up the fight, and don't waver in your convictions. I just hope everyone understands that people on the opposite side of the fence have the exact same feelings.

I think we need to get our troops out of there, ASAP. And, I wish we would've taken Saddam out covert style. But no, I don't disagree with taking him out, and at least trying to nurture democracy in the Middle East.

I guess if were to label me I'd be a "conservative Republican" but as Beth said, I don't like putting labels on things. On some issues I agree with Republicans and on other issues I agree with Democrats, so I don't like to be "limited."

As for my beliefs, I believe in God as well and consider myself very religious. I am totally against abortion as I believe in waiting to have sex until marriage. I do understand that in some circumstances abortion might be ok, as if someone was raped and was pregnant with that scumbag's child. The church wouldn't hold true my stance. I guess the woman could always have the child and put it up for adoption? As for same sex marriages, I am against that as well. I'm not a "gay hater" or "gay basher" as I know a fair number of gay people (being in Austin, there's a lot down there). I just don't agree with their lifestyle and it is their choice.

What I would probably like to see the most in my lifetime is a smaller role in our lives by the government. I would like to see the "dictatorship" that is the government have more of a "hands off" approach. If people want to kill themself, ok (don't make suicide illegal). If people want to pay for sex, fine (don't make prostitution illegal). I say let people for the most part do to themselves what they want and let God judge them. I think the government should stop trying to play God and let us live our lives.

As liberal as I am,

--I am totally pro-business and think that there should be an absolute minimum of government regulation.

--I believe that a business should be allowed to hire whoever they wish to for whatever reason they wish to, and if they don't want tire hire minorities, females, old people, homosexuals, or pregnant women, that's their business.

--I believe the same think about people renting or selling homes that they own. If the don't want to rent or sell to minorities, that should be up to them.

--I don't think that affirmative action programs should apply to private colleges and universities (But it should apply to publicly-funded ones).

I've always held these views, though.

Forgive me plaw as I'm not trying to say you are "wrong" or anything of that nature, just giving my opinions on this views as well. I am against what you say here because I think this is what was wrong with this country (espeically the south) for so many decades. It'd be the same ol "seperate but equal" crap that they made us believe. From the sellers stand point, yes I agree that the person should do with their own property/business as they wish. But I do understand and probably agree more with the otherside of the coin that a lot of people are still racist (even if they don't admit it) and would continue to keep minorities and women down under "the glass ceiling"

I think this is a refreshing change of pace. We have different sides of the fence talking, saying why they feel the way they feel, and no one is name calling or bashing. I feel if every thread stayed this way people wouldn't leave, they wouldn't be afraid of saying what they think without someone putting them down because they don't feel the same way as the other does. There are billions of people in this lovely world. We all have different economic backgrounds, different religious beliefs, and different political beliefs. Why do people think their opinions matter more then others? I also think beings there are so many well educated, eloquent speakers on this board that some, like myself, who don't word things as well as others, feel reluctant to post because people don't feel they are smart enough. We all come from different circles of life. Some have had the great joy of graduating from college, going on to get their majors, making something of themselves. I was not lucky enough to have that as a life experience. I don't have a college education, I barely had a c average in high school, so does that mean what I have to say doesn't count? For me, this is one reason I stay out of things.

Maybe if we used this time to tell people about ourselves, our life experiences, what drove us to have the beliefs we do, then we can all come to the realization there are PEOPLE behind these screen names. This way we can try to put ourselves into other's shoes so to speak. I love my God, and I love my country, and I try to love all of you. Just don't think I'm any less then you because I don't love this President or this war.

I know this post will probably be followed up with some, "don't be so sensitive, or maybe a or two. So be it. If putting others down is a way some like to deal with things that's their perogative. I just try not to live my life that way. (I know, coming from me that's a riot. I've done my fair share too. But it's usually just a reaction to something else).

Beth you have made two great posts on this thread, and it is going just as I had hoped!

Thank you DT. I look forward to reading all the others that follow.

Ahhhh, but the chatroom...the chatroom is another story !!!

Of course, I suppose some may say that is what the chatroom is for, and conversations begun there should stay there.

And I suppose they're right.

Because, after all...the chatroom IS another story.

Apple

Beth you write with great passion and clarity...much more so than many people I have encountered who have college and even post college educations.

Apple, I follow you on your abortiion view, but I am confused. If it is not categorized as a so called "right to choose," how would you frame it?

BTW I can easily forsee technology making Roe v. Wade obsolete in the next ten years. If you could show that a two month old fetus could be viable in, say an artificial womb, then wouldnt the rationale of all the trimesters etc in Roe be out the window?

I'm not talking about the way it's 'framed', so much as the attitude toward the issue itself.

Instead of viewing it as a sad but sometimes necessary choice...many so called feminists these days see it (and are teaching it) as the right to do what THEY want with THEIR bodies, as opposed to a decision that literally ends a life. While they're entitled to that right, it is a completely self serving POV and one that will do more harm than good as it is passed along from generation to generation.

Not sure if I'm making myself clear...sort of hard to put into words since I didn't attend college, either.

Apple

I'm not talking about the way it's 'framed', so much as the attitude toward the issue itself.

Instead of viewing it as a sad but sometimes necessary choice...many so called feminists these days see it (and are teaching it) as the right to do what THEY want with THEIR bodies, as opposed to a decision that literally ends a life. While they're entitled to that right, it is a completely self serving POV and one that will do more harm than good as it is passed along from generation to generation.

Not sure if I'm making myself clear...sort of hard to put into words since I didn't attend college, either.

Apple [/QB][/quote]I got it. I think you are saying that calling it a "right to choose" somehow demeans the tragic circumstances that should go with the decision to end a pregnancy. I totally agree because it really sort of cheapens the whole thing. I mean you have the right to choose what color shirt to buy, and the right to choose coke over pepsi or whatever.

And BTW this thread is not about educational credentials

THANK GOODNESS!! I was a little worried for a while there...

And yes, I think you got my drift re predominant attitude toward abortion in today's society. Excellent analagy about choosing a shirt, etc....just another lifestyle decision, whatever works for me and my life.

Apple

Don't be so sensitive.

1st post in a LONG time

but due to a few not so good life decisions in the recent past, i should have plenty of computer time coming up

ive learned that the liberal/conservative/dem/gop lables are pointless as far as strengthening this country. If anything these labels are tearing this country apart. People Must work together. I used to be a big anti-govt person, & to a certain extent i still am, but i feel that the govn't must start working FOR the people.
Some of these politicians think they are so religious because they denounce gay marraiges and abortions but if they would actually open up their bibles, they would relize that Jesus spent about all of his time---not preaching about abortion and gays---but about Helping the poor, and the dangers of wealth. If these guys are as religious as they say, they should be spending money putting America back to work & fighting the war on poverty.

I also have a belief that a persons political views derive from what that person has seen out of their own eyes. For instance if I tried to explain to some people here that some people are victims of the system and are dragged down by the government I would get comments like, "Give me a break, everybody has an equal opportunity, its just what u make of it." In other words, if u grow up in a nice house, w/ loving parents, a picked fence, and money to go to college, and all your friends have the same advantages (absolutely nothing to be ashamed of), you have a completely different view of the world than some1 else.

just something ive picked up

much love to ya'll

By and large that is true. While there is some equality of opportunity here, it is pretty evident that at the upper levels of society you have to have attended the "right schools" etc to get anywhere. Look at the recent presidents and their opponents. G.W. Bush -- Andover, Harvard. Kerry -- St Pauls, Yale . Clinton -- Georgetown, Yale -- Gore Harvard GW Bush I Yale. Jimmy Carter -- Annapolis Gerald Ford Michigan, Yale JFK Harvard
IKE West Point, FDR Harvard.

So the Exceptions to Yale Harvard or Service Academy grads since 1932 are Nixon, Reagan and Truman.

Well put and I agree! The government and politicians are only looking out for themselves and their career instead of the people

Bleeding heart, pinko, wishy-washy, flip-flopping liberal that I am, nonetheless:

Like our mentor plaw I am very much pro-business and enterprise, one of the many things I admire about the USA is the attitude to self help and provision of opportunity. Those cheese eating surrender monkeys have a saying "The heart is to the left but the wallet is to the right" (though they say it in French!!)

I was very pro-choice in my younger days but my attitude changed when I became a father. I'm pretty much anti-abortion these days.

I'm anti affirmative action. To me giving someone a job simple becasue they are black is as bad as not giving them a job simply because they're black.

I'm anti death penalty but pro locking certain people up for the rest of their natural.

I'm very much pro the rule of law but also pro the rights of the accused.

I'm anti terrorist (despite what some might think)

I'm not anti American (despite what some might think)

I'm pro holding government to account.

I'm ambivalent about same sex marriage but I'm against gay and lesbian couples being about to have or adopt children...can't really put my finger on it just doesn't seem right to me :rolleyes:

I'm pro medical research but anti 60 year old women being able to have children.

I seriously wonder whether the child has an identity crisis...is it "mom," or "grandma?"