DC and Mig, I don't know if I believe in a religion. I don't think so now, but this can change in the future. But if I ever gonna believe in the Christian religion, then I believe in God and Jesus, not in the Bible. That book would be like the GFR, that other thing. I value and appreciate it as a quality book with many life lessons, but not as a true part of my religion. It may guide me trough the impossible task of becoming a real Christian, but I wouldn't believe in the book itself as being holy. And of course I'll never believe in the Catholic Church.
Btw, I feel, as someone who doesn't believe in the Bible, I may criticize it.

And even if I ever would believe in the holyness of the Bible, then I would still say the part about 'being gay is a sin' is wrong. Why? Because I first believe in humans. And therefore, I cannot ever believe in discrimination.

I'm leftwing (not that that has something to do with it), and I believe all people are equal. The Bible would have to come on the second place then, after my own believings of humanism.

Being gay is something natural. It's some thing of life that nature has created. It has always been there.
Some people are born with one arm, some with only 2 toes, some are mentally ill, some are exceptionally strong, some are gay, some people are good in math, some are deaf.
People who are in the minority have always existed. But they are all just human beings.

Why being gay is now so much more not allowed than those other things, is that you can't really see it on the outside, and even not on the inside until that person is somewhere between 16 and 40. It always stayed something obscure because of the repression of the Catholic Church, and that only changed in the 20th century.

Btw, whatever the school may think about religion, discrimination, .... I still think it's ridiculous to punish the children because of something the parents are/do.

How do you know that?
This is not an arrogant question, just a ... question-question.

That would be like being a Muslim and not believing in the Koran. How does The Godfather Returns have anything to do with it?

EDIT: If you were a Christian/Catholic, how would you know about Jesus/God except for the Bible?

The Bible would be for me a source of information.

True religion comes out of yourself, it comes on a moment when you find in yourself the need to believe in the existence of a higher creature. The bible may help you in providing the information of all the good things that creature and his messias Jesus stand for.

That GFR thing wasn't well chosen, cancell that part of mine.

Or a Jew not believing in the Thora.

Yes, the bible does say that homosexuality is an abomination. However, there are many lessons in the bible that shouldn't be interpreted literally, or are no longer relevant today. For example, the bible gives us permission to sell our children. I would think that if one of these women tried to sell this girl, then that would be frowned upon, no?

Plaw, as for your example of the non-blind person wanting to go to a school for the blind, isn't that a sort of silly example. Since the major portion of what the students would be learning is how a blind person gets around in a seeing world, that's not a great example.

I feel that I've made my position quite clear. The school is discriminating and I don't believe that they have the right to do so. I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school for many years. I think that discrimination against anyone is so against what Jesus taught, that a Christian school should go out of its way to take in the lost lambs that might not be wanted elsewhere.

I'd agree with that, generally speaking.

So let me put it another way: Do you think the school should even have such a rule, prohibiting the parent of a student to be living with someone out of wedlock, or engaged in homosexual relationship?

("School policy requires that at least one parent may not engage in practices "immoral or inconsistent with a positive Christian life style, such as cohabitating without marriage or in a homosexual relationship" ").

Would you have such a rule if you were the superintendent and making the rules? [/b][/quote]Question # 1. Who am I to say what rules they should have or shouldn't have. If this school is governed by the teachings of the Bible then yes they should have that rule.

Question #2. If I were the superintendent of a Christian school then yes.

Hmm, only one of them may practice immoral behavior...

"I'm not gay, my girlfriend is"

I admire and respect your strong adherence to your belief system and all, Mig, although personally it's not my cup of tea.

But I'd be interested in reading this school's entire policy regarding what the parents of students are not allowed to do, or have done, that would get their child expelled.

I'd bet that if it were strictly enforced in every case, this school would be out of business due to a lack of students.

Edit: I couldn't find their complete policy on their website, but there's a full statement by the school's superintendent here:

http://www.ocschools.org/letterfromsuperintendent.pdf

I don't mind you agreeing with me, as long as you fully understand my position.

[/b][/quote]Uh-oh, agreement under conditions! :p

Well, think the government does have to at least in some manner regulate either some or all of the issues you mentioned, especially abortion, since it effects the unborn and future citizens of the this country. Same-sex marriage, not so much, but I think when it comes to taxation, official documentation and whatnot, and even future divorces and custody battles that will have to be handled in courts and things, obviously the government should take a proactive examination of the situation, and, if the populus feels that an amendment should be made banning the practice, then so be it.


Not necessarily. Just because I believe in the Patriot Act (and I do, wholeheartedly) doesn't mean I am in favor or disagreement with all government measures in this area, be they from the simplest in stature up to the "Orwellian" Patriot Act.

Mmm, I know, bipartisanship is a scary thing.

Actually, I think, legal wise, it might come down to whether the homosexuality/lifestyles of the parents was a condition of acceptance before or after she was accepted, or rather, it was "invented" after learning about her parents being lesbians.

I couldn't find their complete policy on their website, but based on the superintendent's statement in the above link, it appears to be rather general and all-encompassing, without spelling out each particular violation specifically.

While my original position on this issue was that the school should have the legal right to do as they wished in this case, but that their actions were wrong in a moral sense altho legitimate in a legal one, after reading the school's mission statement....

Ontario Christian School
... is a community of believers sharing a common faith and commitment to:

A Sovereign God
The Lordship of Jesus Christ
The Power of the Holy Spirit
And the infallible, inerrant Word of God
Furthermore, compelled by our life-time responsibility to be salt and light in this world, we dedicate ourselves to imaging God to our children.

Our Purpose

... is to equip students to view themselves as transformers of society, using their unique personalities and talents to joyfully serve Christ and others in this world.

Mission Responsibility

As PARENTS AND A BROADER CHRISITAN COMMUNITY, we will...

Support the home and church in teaching Biblical Values
Nurture children and care about their futures.
Seek to train every generation to be obedient to Christ and to claim every area of life and learning for Him.
Commit ourselves to support teachers and staff as extensions of the parent's authority.
Strive to provide the resources and facilities necessary to carry out the mission of the school.
Strive to provide an education that develops each student's unique physical, intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual potential.
Celebrate our oneness in Christ by providing opportunities to support and serve.

In regard to our STUDENTS, we will...

Encourage them to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Expect them to exhibit a lifestyle consistent with our calling to be imitators of God.
Provide and consistently enforce a behavioral standard that we believe is pleasing to our Lord.
Attempt to maintain a school atmosphere that will instill in our students a spirit of enthusiasm and joy in the Lord.

Our PROGRAM will...

Provide a course of study that is grounded in Biblical truth and that leads students to see God's immeasurable greatness, awesome workmanship, and boundless wisdom.
Enable students to integrate Christ into every aspect of their lives.
Prepare the students to carry God's message to a broken and sinful world.
As a FACULTY AND STAFF we will...
Demonstrate our Christian faith by a personal walk with the Savior, a reliance on the power of prayer, a commitment to knowing God's Word, a life of service, and church involvement.
Encourage each student to apply the Christian faith to both learning and life and, thus, develop a Christian world-and-life view.
Commit to maintaining professional competence, updating teaching skills and completing continuing education.
Support one another in our united effort to fulfill our mission.

Based on the above, I have to change my view somewhat.

Seems to me that since this school feels so incredibly strongly about their mission, their role, etc., that you can't really argue with them for expelling this student for the reasons which they did.

I repost my question, I really want to know this.


How do you know that?

Bible was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, NOT English. Obviously when this is translated into English or some other language, the exact words used will depend on who is doing the translations. "Abomination" translates to "ritually unclean" in ancient Hebrew. So depending how what language the translation, it could mean that rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur. All those thees thous and thines were never part of the original written thousands of years before.

Lots of things in the Holy Bible have been wrong (arguably by translations, allegorical, or something else) or no longer practiced. Do you believe in slavery? killing children? that children should be put to death for sins of the parents? death to those that work on Sunday?

I digress...that school saddens me. It is a shame that people ignore the good stuff the Bible can offer -- universal humility, compassion and brotherhood.

The Bible... I'm not really into fiction.

The GIRL wasn't homosexual, her PARENTS were. Seems the school lost a good opportunity to bring "an innocent into their flock". Since obviously these Christians believe her parents can not discern God's will, why didn't they?

A very good point. The sins of the father doesn't carry down to the son, right? Right?

Did you read the school's mission statement, Saladbar?

Sounds like they are ultra-ultra-extra-ultra conservative, so I can see their point, sort of.

Sorry, but God doesn't hate, period. He doesn't hate homosexuals or homosexuality. God only loves, at least in my opinion.

And if this school truly wanted to impart Jesus' message, it was one of love, humility and acceptance. That is NOT the message that this school teaches its students. It teaches one of bigotry and non-acceptance of others. Shameful.

That said, some may believe that by being a private school, they have the right to exclude who they want. You're all entitled to your opinions. But I still stand by mine.

I never said that he hates Homosexuals. But I cannot agree with you that God doesn't hate SIN itself. Does he like sin? No. Does he respect Sin? No. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorah because he hated THE SINS that the city was infested with. He eventually flooded the world because of the the sin that he hated. And if one believes in the new testament, he hated sin so much that he was willing to sacrafice his only son to finally defeat sin, and save the sinner.

I said that he loves Homosexuals but hates the ACT of homosexuality because according to his teachings, the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. Not my opinion, but the teachings of the bible. And therefore, according to the bible, God loves the sinner, but hates sin itself.

And on that point I agree with you 100%. They are not sending the correct message as far as what they claim to represent religionwise.


And I respect your feelings and opinions in regards to this. It is a shame. But again, the problem here is, who then decides what a private religious school can and cannot implement in regards to their rules and requirements for allowing someone to attend that school? Not government. That's for sure. Seperation of Church and State is a two way way street.


Don Cardi

The key word here, IMO is "Private", not Religious".

Yes, separation of church and state and all. But just because it's a religious school, that shouldn't be the main factor in freeing them from government interference.

ANY private school should be free of government interference in establishing its policies.

Ok, so now you are looking to start a whole new issue to debate about. I'm game. Let's do it!

I'll start off by saying that you are one sided in your thinking. You want the seperation of church and state to apply to keeping the words UNDER GOD out of the pledge, but when the tables are turned, you don't want to recognize seperation of church and state because now a religious organization wants tp apply it to protect themselves. You can't have it both ways my friend. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.


Don Cardi

Noooo......

What I said was that there is a larger reason for the government not interfering.

That this just so happens to be a religious school is incidental.

If it were any private school the government should butt out.

I said that the fact that it's a religious school shouldn't be the main factor.

Are you suggesting that because it's a rekigious school the giovernment should butt out, but if it were just a "regular" private school with no religious affiliation, the government could "butt in"?

How about if a boy applies to an all girls school, or a person who can see to a blind person's school?

PRIVATE is PRIVATE.

It's not that I'm not against separation of church and state, it just doesn't apply here. Or if it does, there's a more important over-riding factor than religion which should keep the government out of it.

But do you agree that the Government should NEVER interfere with the teachings, the rules or the beliefs of a religious school?


Don Cardi

Of course I do.

But I believe that there are almost no cases in which the government should interfere with the workings of any private business, which is what this school is.

Ok so then the law that was put into effect by our government several years ago that bans smoking in all NYC restaurants is wrong in your eyes?

Not looking to change the topic, but just trying to apply this question to your feeling that government should not interfere with private businesses in general.

Don Cardi


Don Cardi

Seriously, Mignon, if you were to believe in every word that is said in the bible you would be a pacifist and lots of other things as well.

Yeah, the bible says homosexuals shoud be killed.
Do you agree with that?

And yes i'm sure the bible says that, because it was written in hebrew and i speak hebrew.

Goebbels, just wondering where you got your username? Out of curiosity.

Well does it actually say it, or not? Are you sure, or do you think it does?


Don Cardi

Absolutely wrong.

Let market forces dtermine if there should be smoking in restaurants or not.

Some smart restrauteur would have opened a non-smoking place with food as good as the best places in the city.

People who wanted fine dining and no smoking would have flocked there. Other restarurants would have followed.

The smoking places would have realizied that they were losing business, and some of them would have gone to non-smoking also.

And eventually, there would have been enough of each type of place to accomodate everyone.

Very well said DC