Remember Godfather 2, and the bar scene where Pentangeli is about to be
murdered, Danny Aiello says "This is a message from Michael Corleone..."

What does he mean? Obviously, Pentangeli is going to be killed, and what
difference does it make to him who did it?

So, why does he say it? Is Michael involved in his death/murder?

Also, in Godfather 2 Michael says "Killed by someone close to us..." he
must mean Fredo. However, Fredo could not kill anyone (!) and who is that
other person? Also, as they fish the bodies out, we never know who those
peope were. (Were they part of Fredo's gang? If so, then how could
Michael, Rocco and Tom not know who they were?)

I have read the postings for the second question, but I am not satisfied with the responses that makes sense.

Maybe someone else can help....

If Turnbull comes in here he will be able to explain in great detail about your questions.

Calling Turnbull!

Unlike the senator, I can deal with anyone who has some insight into these issues.

In my opinion it's a flaw in the movie. Unless you want to figure it either one of two ways...Roth wanted Pentangelli to die thinking it was Michael who ordered his hit, or...Roth never intended for the hit to be successful, but to set up Frankie to turn on Michael. Personally the former makes more sense and it worked out in Roth's favor (temporarily) that Frankie turned on Michael anyway.

At this point he isn't referring to any one specific person...just knows that someone close would have to have been able to carry it out.

The hitmen found in the ditch were Roth's men. I dount Fredo ever had a 'gang'.


Oh, and the beauty of this board AND of a work of fiction is that if you fail to get responses that are satisfactory you can always offer your own suggestions. Who knows, maybe yours will be the most logical explanation yet!!!

Apple

Turnbull knows who killed the tahoe assassins?

Hey, Turnbull! Quit holding out on us....the people have a right to know!

The line ("Michael Corleone says hello") doesn't make any sense (for the reasons stated above). That dialogue wasn't written for the movie, but rather ad-libbed by Danny Aiello. Coppola liked what he heard and without regard to the storyline, he left the line in the movie.

That whole scene was based on a real life incident involving the Gallo Bros and Joe Profaci. A line similar to what Danny Aiello ad-libbed was actually spoken back in 1961 during an attempted hit on Larry Gallo.

Welcome to the boards, mcorleone!

No one really knows who killed the assassins,could have been someone who knew about it(most likely) or someone who saw them on the grounds trying to escape after the alarm had been sounded(unlikely)It was not however,Fredo,who killed them.
Turnbull's answer to the "MC says hello",which I believe,is that it was not meant for Frankie,who they truely intended to kill, but they said it for Richie, the bartender.Since he wasnt a mafioso,he wasnt necessarily under omerta,and could tell the cops that the assassins were sent from Mike,to mislead them.Sorry if I stole your thunder TB

which would make sense, but the fact that roth had intended for michael never to live past new years would not make sense as to why he would want to set up michael and then kill him before the trial.

Aiello admits he ad-libbed the famous line, and Francis Coppola, for some reason (probably inadvertence), permitted the ad-lib to remain in the film, to the eternal bafflement of Godfather fans. But it’s also possible that Coppola, the most careful of directors, allowed it to remain because it fit the plot, even though Carmine intended to kill Frankie all along. “Michael Corleone says hello” was intended not for Frankie—but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie.
It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams after the cop enters and Rosato draws his gun). Carmine knows that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of Carmine to identify him as the killer. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So Carmine hands Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth!
As for "someone very close to us," it's the number-one stumper on these boards. No one knows for sure who killed the Tahoe shooters. Some people here (including me) believe Fredo opened the drapes to allow the shooters to machine-gun Michael and Kay's bedroom. But who killed them????

Sorry but I really don't believe that Fredo opened the drapes. Sure, he wanted to "handle things", but I seriously don't believe that he would do that. I'd like to believe that when Johnny Ola came on board, some of his men sneaked in and opened the drapes way before the party ended. Also, hasn't anyone consider that maybe Fredo's men could have killed Roth's assasins-to-be? You see, they could approach Fredo after the hit, Fredo is scared the living hell of it and orders his men to kill them, without leaving a trace. Remember, when Michael gave control to Tom, he mentioned that he would have power over all, and among other people, "Fredo and his men". I think thats what happened. Fredo's stupidity left him dead in the end of all.

I also believe Fredo opened the drapes......but there is really no definitive answer as to who killed the killers? This part of the movie just does not make sense....if Fredo killed them, this is a side of Fredo not seen in any of the other (prior and subsequent) scenes. If his men killed them, then Michael and Tom know who is the traitor....and if they were killed by a third killer, how does he get away? Since Fredo is part of the plot, he would not stash him (knowing that he killed the killers) and that murderer's silence could be used against Fredo....

If Fredo didn't open the drapes, what exactly was his role in the plot? You say you don't believe that he would do that, but any other role you want to assign him, like letting the assassins onto the grounds, or promising to help them escape, gets him in even deeper. You have to believe that with hundreds of guests roaming the grounds that day, many of whom I would assume were relative strangers, the house would have been pretty well guarded, as was pointed out here in another thread by, I believe, Turnbull. I have a few problems with that scenario:

"They approach Fredo after the hit..." You're implying here that Fredo's men knew Fredo was involved. How would they know that?

"He orders his men to kill them without leaving a trace" So Fredo's men locate the assassins before any of the other dozens of men who are also looking, aren't seen locating the assassins by anyone else, kill the assassins without being seen by anyone else, and then dump them in a ditch without being seen by anyone else.

Not likely, IMO.

The complete assassination plot is never fully fleshed out in the film. Obviously, to kill two assassins would have required at least one (If Fredo helped) and possibly two other "plotters", who are never identified, nor is their role.

It's just a big black plot hole as far as I'm concerned.

You may also want to read THIS THREAD for a recent dicussions that adavnces the theory that Rocco participated.

Wow! This is a good discussion and it is helping me understand. I have read the novel several times and seen the movie countless times, and again, this message board is really helpful for me, a Corleone.

Thanks so much

And I look forward to continuing these lines of discussion.

Also, I do not believe that Rocco had anything to do with the assasination attempt. It is not really his character, and in the novel, his promotion with Clemenza and killing Paulie, was his devotion and loyalty to the Corleone family.

Although he was killed by the police when he killed Hyman Roth, I feel that he was incurably sick (why not? he was older than Paulie in the novel, but not as old as his peer Clemenza) and offered his life for the vengeance of Michael.

Any thoughts?

If Fredo didn't realize it was going to be a hit (which I believe he didn't)...then what possible reason would he have for opening the drapes to give assasins a clear shot at Michael's bedroom???

Stupid and gullible as he was, even Fredo would've had second thoughts as to a request like that.

If we're going to ponder who opened the drapes, then we also have to ask how Kay could possibly get undressed and into bed without ever realizing they were open. Or, we would have to assume someone snuck in and opened them while she dozed off...neither is too believable.

So the answer is that there is really NO answer as to who or how the drapes got opened. They just got that way, and it's just another 'black hole' in the movie. Because it was something the writer/director probably did not anticipate people asking.

Apple

If you buy into the kidnapping theory, it was to let the kidnappers know when he was unguarded in his bedroom.

I don't.

Apple

So Fredo tells Ola "You guys lied to me"

What did they tell Fredo was gonna happen, and what do you think Fredo's role was?

I don't think Fredo might have opened the drapes and i think Michael knew that because if Fredo was just completely stupid and really thought it was a hit then Michael would have probably kept him alive, but Michael still had him wacked, I think Rocco killed the Tahoe assassins and that is why he went on the suicide mission.

So what was Fredo's role in the plot?

And how did Rocco, single-handedly, both find and slit the throats or garotte two guys without being seen?

Personally, I just don't see how Fredo could've opened the drapes, and not know it would be a hit. What did he think? They wanted photos of Kay in her underwear? And I do believe that he did NOT set up his brother for murder. That is evident in his late night conversation with Johnny Ola.

I don't have a clue who did actually open the drapes, but I have problems believing it was Fredo, mostly because I do want to think of him as stupid, weak and sweet.

SB, logically Fredo had to know that he was setting up a hit when he opened the drapes. But people who get emotional about vengeance aren't always logical. When he said, "You guys lied to me," it opens at least the possibility that the "lie" was that they were going to do something other than kill Michael after Fredo opened the drapes.
Logically, Carlo had no reason to think that he could have beat up Connie the second time to lure Sonny out of the Compound, and not be blamed for Sonny's assassination. But he was hell-bent for vengeance, and logic had nothing to do with his decision. The same could be said of Paulie Gatto: did he really think he could call in sick on the day the Don was to be assassinated and get away with it?

Well, there's the kidnapping theory from the unused script.

And again, what was his role, if not that of drapes-man?

Again...there's really no definitive answer to that because Fredo's exact 'role' is simply not addressed in the movie. All we hear him telling Michael later on is that he was promised 'something in it for him' if he 'helped with negotiations'. He did not specify how he was asked to help, what he did, or who (other than Ola) he spoke to.

We realize he did SOMETHING to enable the assasination attempt on Michael - but if you put into perspective Fredo's character I just cannot picture the guy physically entering his brother's bedroom and opening the drapes not realizing there was going to be a hit.

So if you believe both his statements to Ola that he was lied to...and to Michael that he didn't know it was going to be a hit...then it cannot be possible that Fredo opened the drapes. Even a kidnapping plot that plaw brought up Friday - I don't think Fredo would've gone along with anything he thought would bring physical harm to his brother. In his innocent stupidity whatever he did or whomever he had contact with...he thought he was helping with negotiations, as he said. Make no mistake though, it was STILL a betrayal because he knew he was doing something behind Michael's back that was related to business.

But unused (aka useless) scripts aside...there is nowhere in the film that we are told what he did. It's all up to speculation or even better who CARES what he did, whatever it was allowed the film to go on ....

Apple

id have to watch part 2 again to maybe pick up on something but what i notice is people doubting fredo did it because of the fact he was "innocent and sweet"...just because you SEE him that way doesnt always mean hes that way and as for saying he didnt know it was gonna be a hit...IMO thats just his way of coverin his ass so he wouldnt get whacked but as michael saidi n the first film "you think that would fool a corleone" and remember that fredo did get pissed at michael in the first one for the casino deal and michael told him not to take sides against the family again so if you use that and follow chronologically then i say fredo knew what he was doing it was his way of getting back at michael but a failed hit and the obvious person will always try to cover their ass

Maybe when Johnny Ola was down for the party he and Fredo snuck away? Maybe Johnny said I need a few minutes in Michael's bedroom and Fredo was lame enough to cover? No that doesn't make sense because Kay would have seen the drapes open when she undressed and took her jewelry off-
hmmm... someone must have come into the room while she dozed off but who would have known? I may go with Apple on this one and say FCC just didn't think anyone would ask questions? The drapes had to have been closed AFTER kay was already in bed!

see fredo is the only one who would be able to get in there due to family relations and when kay dosed off if fredo went into the room i doubt anyone would say anything bein the family relations

I might agree with that except for the much earlier scene when he gets the nightime phone call from Ola in which he is visibly upset with what has taken place. He realized and tells Ola that he was lied to; this further indicates that he had no idea a hit was to take place.

As we see in just about every scene he's in in BOTH Godfather films, Fredo is not 'a Corleone' in terms of the Family Business sense that any of his brother's (including Tom) are. He is easily duped not only by Ola/Roth in Part II...but also in The Godfather we see how trusting & gullible he is not only when Paulie calls in sick, but later in Vegas when he tries to side with his 'pal', Moe Green.

Also...Vito's brief statement that "Fredo was...Fredo was..." in his last conversation with Michael tells all that's needed about Fredo's abilities.

Even in their 'banana daquiri' conversation Fredo admits to Michael that their mama teased him about not being her son, being raised by gypsies. All over the place, time & time again we are given hints that Fredo is just a misfit within the Corleone Family. So Michael's statement that "you think that would fool a corleone" just doesn't justify the (incorrect) theory that Fredo knew and aided in any assasination plot.

True, he got 'pissed' at Michael and was quickly put in his place first by Tom who reminded him that The Don was semi-retired and it was now Michael who was running the family...and then Michael who warned him not to take sides with anyone against the family again. Ever. Also, at this stage many (including Fredo) were vastly underestimating Michael's role as Head of the Family.

It is no newsflash that Fredo worked with Ola & Roth out of years of frustration and jealousy toward Michael - he lets all that out in the boathouse scene! But not to the degree that he would knowingly aid in a plot to kill his brother. I just don't see him capable of going that far (and the call with Ola proves it).

Best,
Apple

Not necessarily ... information provided by Fredo (though again we're never told what that is) might allow Roth's men to infiltrate the home and then the bedroom (or even rig something up from outside the bedroom) to open the drapes.

Which you correctly state would have to have been done while Kay 'dozed' off because she would not have gotten into bed with those drapes opened.

Apple

what i ment by the "think that would fool a corleone" line was the meer fact that fredo said that he didnt know so michael would know something we dont also as you said with the call where you said fredo was visibly upset...as i had said thats how you see him...isnt there a slight..small but slight chance that FFC showed him that way so that maybe people would think he wasnt able to carry out the hit and if its true he was upset about it could that also be because he was upset at michael that he had the hit helped with the hit not thinking more of an act of revenge that was "jsut business" before realizing what he almost did

I don't think so.

Oh, and scarfacetm...could you try using punctuation sometimes it might make your streamofconsciousness posts a little easier to handle.

Apple