I saw a documentary about the 9/11 attacks, and it looks like many people dont believe that Bin Laden is behind it. Some people say they simply dont know, some think its the Bush administration, some think its the jews etc.
who do you think is behind these attacks? please cast your vote.

TT attacks single choice
	Bin Laden
	I'm not sure whos behind these attacks
	Israel
	Bush administration
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

The someone should have them explain this :

( a partial audio version from a video of Bin Laden and his cohorts right after the 9/11 attacks)

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower . We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three of four floors . I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.

We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day . We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was sitting with Dr. Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We turned the radio station to the news from Washington. The news continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end of the newscast, they reported that a plane just hit the World Trade Center.


Here's the complete transcript :
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/

How is it that those doing these television programs or interviews never seem to ask the right questions to these people and throw facts at them when they make these ridiculous assertions?

Debra, I understand that you are just posing a question here out of curiosity because of what you heard and saw on that program. So my comments are not directed at you.

But those who concoct these conspiracy theories obviously do not really do their homework and obviously are too far removed from all the details that took place on the day of those attacks and the months following them.

Doubting that Bin Laden was behind those attacks only shows me how uneducated, clueless and quite frankly full of shit many of these people really are.

Not talking about you here, but referring to those who come up with these ridiculous theories on these programs and in the media. :rolleyes:


Don Cardi

I did not vote, but I do believe that 99.999% it was Usamah Bin Laden and his asshole minions. This means, that yes, there is a 0.001% chance that it was Israel (Mossad, Shin Bet, Israeli hard right wing etc.), The Bush Administration (not very likely at all, but remotely possible), or anybody else. Either way, Bin Laden should be captured and put to justice. Justice means that when the overwhelming evidence against him and Ayman Al-Zawahri and the rest of those bastard sons of bitches convicts them, they should be slowly tortured and forced to watch their families die slow, painful deaths after which they are slowly and painfully killed. Doesn't sound very nice eh? Well, Bin Laden is not a nice man and neither are any of those Al-Qaeda cock suckers. They gave up their rights to be treated as human beings the second they formed and joined Al-Qaeda and Al-Taliban. It's a shame that the Bush Administration is too caught up in Iraq to devote any real time or money to attacking the real problem which is Afghanistan, finding Bin Laden and other Qaeda/Taliban bigwigs. I just hope that one day, Allah willing, Bin Laden and the rest, who were responsible for 9/11/01 and the other terrorist attacks around the World that happened after that day are one day caught and get what's coming to them.

First, and necessarily, let me make it perfectly one thousand million per cent clear that ino no way shape or form, or in any manner., do i subscribe to any 9/11 theory other than the one that attributes the res[pnsibility to Al Qaeda.

That said, however, I must also add that given everything we know about the actions of our government over the last 45 years or so, it never fails to show me how uneducated and clueless those people are who accept everything they are told at its face value and believe it all without questioning it.

As I say, in this particular case I don't believe in any conspiracy theories (I have to keep saying it, lest I be misunderstood) involving 9/11, however.....

If the day should ever come - and I sincerely hope that it doesn't, because such a day would indeed be a dark one for America - when we learn that there's more to the story than what we are now being told, I must admit, sadly, that I would not be totally shocked.

Is there really anyone here who would?

Would anyone here be shocked to learn, finally and without doubt, that the C.I.A. or some other government agency was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Would anyone be surprised to learn - or in other cases was anyone surprised at what we've already learned - that over the years we were lied to about the assassination of Robert Kennedy, fraud in the 1960 presidential election, Watergate, our involvement in Viet Nam, Iran-Contra, Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, etc., etc.?

I know I wasn't or wouldn't be.....

P.L., I wouldn't be shocked at all. But given the political climate in North America and around the World and especially for people of my ethnic background and faith it is not easy to say what you really feel regarding this issue. Of course, over here on the bb, I know that I am among friends (friends who I've never seen in person or spoke to over the phone say, but such are the times we live in I guess ) and I can say what I want and I did in my first post in this thread. However, having said all that, I say again that Usamah Bin Laden and his "organization" was most probably, 99.999% responsible for the 9/11 attacks and also as I said I hope he is brutally punished. But, if that dark day (not only for America but for the whole World it would be I think) comes where we find out that the C.I.A., F.B.I. or some sort of other organizations in conjunction with the U.S. Government were in any way actively responsible for 9/11, I would not be shocked. I would be deeply disturbed and troubled by that news but not shocked.

In any case, due to the negligence of then National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice and President Bush, Vice President Cheney and the rest of The Bush Cabinet, the conditions for the 9/11 attacks were created. Am I saying that they were in any way directly responsible for the attacks? No. Were they negligent, irresponsible, inclined towards dimwitted, idiot bullshit manouvres that essentially accomplish nothing? Yes. They still are.

Maybe you mentioned this before; I don't know.

What is your ethnic backround and faith, if you don't mind m asking (and since you brought it up)?

Let me make myself 100% clear here that I would never take everything that the government tells me as gospel, and that I also know that the government has a history of "holding back" the real facts on many issues. The moment we stop questioning our own government and some of it's actions is the moment that we give up our freedoms.

And I agree with you about that Plaw. Anyone with the least amount of common sense would never trust ANY government 100% and just believe everything that they are told by that government 100%, without questioning it. If that be the case then a person of that mentality should just live under a dictatorship.

With that said, and you making it perfectly clear that you in no way support any conspiraciy theories about 9/11, let me point out that on the opposite side of the same coin, there are those out there who just believe every conspiracy theory that is thrown out there, without ever questioning the validity of it's content.

This one here is a perfect example. All one has to do if they have any doubts about Bin Laden being behind the attacks is to do a little research and pay attention to what took place after those attacks and what cintinues to take place right now.

Yes, governments are and have been involved in conspiracies and coverups over the years. but in this case, specifically about the question of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda being behind these attacks, these conspiracy theories are quite ridiculous.

People need to educate themselves before spewing the garbage that they sometimes do.


Don Cardi

This topic makes me sick!

South Asian-Canadian (Indian). Spent 0 - 4 in Kuwait City, Kuwait (there are huge South Asian, Iranian, non Gulf Arab, Philippino etc. expatriate populations in The Persian Gulf Arab States e.g. The U.A.E., Kuwait, Saudi Arabia etc.). Came to Canada with my family when I was 4-years-old, Thank The Great Good Lord God Almighty that my parents came to the best country in the World and I grew up, along with my brother, very privilaged.

Muslim, born a Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim. Over the years I explored all the facets and sects of Islam (Shiaism and it's various subsects, Sunnism and its subgroups, Sufism, everything but the crazy Bin Laden fundamentalist idiot variety) and other religions (Christianity ((Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy and a lot of their subsects,)) Judaism ((Reform, Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox - Hasidim, Haridim etc.)), Hinduism, Buddhism, Bahaism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Jainism etc.) I've come to the conclusion that all religions seek what is good in humanity and promote goodness so in their absolute essence they are essentially the same. I'm the most "secular" Muslim you'll come across (as you probably already would have surmised :p ). I try my absolute best not to be prejudiced or racist or sexist in any way but many times I do fail and I think that all of us (me, you, every body) is racist or prejudiced to a certain degree. You can claim that you are not or wrap it up in some sort of semantic, intellectual, highfalutin argument but we all are to a certain degree. It's human nature. Those who are the least so are the nicest people I think.

It's a shame and really a tragedy I think that religion and race/ethnicity/nationality/creed/colour are used as an excuse for war, hatred, senseless violence and just plain idiocy. I think Rodney King said it best when he said: "Can't we all just get along?" :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Jasani:
But given the political climate in North America and around the World and especially for people of my ethnic background and faith it is not easy to say what you really feel regarding this issue. Of course, over here on the bb, I know that I am among friends (friends who I've never seen in person or spoke to over the phone say, but such are the times we live in I guess ) and I can say what I want and I did in my first post in this thread. [QUOTE]

I am trying to understand what you mean here. Are you saying that it is not easy for you to give your opinion of these matters, outside of posting them on these boards, because of the part of the world that you live in?


Don Cardi

Don C., well no, I don't think I would say that at all. In fact living in Canada makes it 100 times more easier for me to voice my opinion the way I see fit than if I were to live in say...Pakistan, Cuba, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, China or wherever. However, as a Muslim (not practising or devout as I mentioned but I do consider myself a Muslim) there are automatic assumptions and stereotypes that people make about you and your (Muslim) family and friends. I don't know, maybe it's just me being my paranoid self. It's just that, at the airport or wherever, if I get extra scrutiny cuz of say how I look, I'm not offended by that. On the contrary, it means the security people are doing their jobs and I've got no problem taking off my shoes or belt or having my carry on searched or whatever. I'm not a terrorist, I never was a terrorist and never will be a terrorist.

Also, The Bush administration has turned the devastation, horror, and terror of the 9/11 attacks into a 1984like perpetual state of war and fear to control the population of The United States of America and the rest of the free world. If not to control, at least to create a cold war McCarthy era sort of atmosphere where people are suspicious of every body else. If this fear or whatever it is causes people to vote Republican (or for the Conservative parties in their countries) then all the better for the Bushies.

Having said all this, I do not in any way, shape or form, wish Bush to fail in Afghanistan and Iraq despite what I think of him as a man and as a President. Literally, the future of the World will be decided by the war in Afghanistan and the war on Iraq. Naturally I want the West and the free World to prevail in both wars. I am just perplexed though, on Bush's refusal to devote more time, attention, money and troops to Afghanistan.

Ok, I understand what you meant now. Thanks for the response.


Don Cardi

Yeah, no problem man. I love my country, I love my faith. It's not a perfect world and it never will be. Life, I think, is about making the best with what you have been given and what you have acquired. To come to a conclusion about a person based on something that is beyond his/her control is the height of stupidity in my opinion. To make sweeping generalizations about a group of people or even on an individual basis is also very, very, stupid. Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Canadian, American, Mexican, whatever. Money has always been more important to me! :p

As much as I loathe Bush, I don't believe that anyone other than terrorists were behind the 9/11 attacks.

Of course. It's just in the nature of animals to be xenophobic in some sort of way. The less we can hide those feelings, surpress them, and try to lose them, the more humane we are. That's what differenciates man from other animals: the ability to act humane. Too bad that doesn't always show in today's (and yesterday's) world...

Because of the porn?

Serious now, I admire you for having studied religion so accurate. How long did that take you? And did you covered the historic facts-like aspect and the techical sides of the religions, or also the 'real side', the 'religious thing' of the religions? (I know, kinda vague, but I hope you'll understand.)

I'm planning on doing the same things, and learn about the major religions Christendom, Islam, Jewism, Hindoeïsm, and Boeddhism. Not to the same extent as you probably (I mean, you read about all those smaller religions and the sub-parts too).

I would. I wouldn't be if there was more behind some of the other major subjects that have fallen to conspiracy (JFK to name one), like a CIA, FBI, NSA, or government part in those scandals.

But this is really clearly the work of Jihadi's, and the American government or one of the intelligence agencies wouldn't have had a real advance when they were part of it.

So I would be shocked if I heard the government, CIA, ... did this to their fellow countrymen. If that were ever true, my not so big trust in the (current) American government would really go to zero.

The only other one that I believe to be guilty in 9/11 is Israël. But that's like 0,1 % next to the 99,9% that I'm sure a freaky Jihadi group like Al Qaeda did the 9/11 attacks.

:rolleyes:
Seems I've heard this tune somewhere before...

Why don't you just start your own sovereign nation, plaw...then at least you'll know you can trust the gov't, although the fun of not trusting it (and reminding the rest of us any chance you get) will make life all the more boring.

Apple

And you're gonna keep hearing that tune every time I hear the tune that prompts it.

I will remind you every chance I get, just as someone like you reminds us every chance you get about their blind faith in the government and how those who suggest otherwise are in some way fooish, silly, unpatriotic, or, as I believe you referred to them, "Geeks".

Contrary to what you may think, BTW, not trusting the governemnt is NOT fun or pleasant. I would much prefer to have faith in our elected leaders and trust what our government officials tell us.

And I certainly have no plans to start any soverign nation of my own. :rolleyes:

Don't run that "America - love it or leave it" crapola on me.

I live in the United States of America which, despite its faults, is by far the greatest country in the world.

I'm perfectly happy living here, and perfectly happy with my role as a patriotic American citizen, which, although you are apparently unaware of the fact, includes the right to question, criticize, and employ whatever other legal means I wish to in the name of making our country even greater and a better place for everyone.

I have to laugh when you go on & on also about that 'blind faith' thing. I did support the President on the Dubai Port issue and think it's a shame that it fell through. I do support Bush on Iraq and the War on Terror. I do think Cheney shot that poor fellow by accident.

I'm angry and disappointed with our President on many other issues, not the least of which is how he allowed this illegal immigration thing to get out of hand. I don't have 'blind faith' in GW, but I did vote for him and would again over Gore, Kerry, Clinton or any Dem put up against him. Because right now, I feel he's the best man for the job.

But there, there...I know you like to harp on the 'blind faith' thing, just like you like to harp on the 'blind hatred' thing you feel conservatives have for the other side.

It just gives you that much more to rant over.

Rant away, the thread is yours...

Apple

When did I ever say that I felt that conservatives have a "blind hatred" for the other side?

Quite the contrary, in fact.

I know quite a number of conservatives whose point of view I respect - since I consider virtually no issue to be black or white - and who respect my POV for the same reason.

And of course I appreciate your disappointment with President Bush and I agree that Cheney shot the guy by accident - alway did, AAMOF (although I don't see what that has to do with anything here).

Plaw, if you do start your own country, as president of Neal's fan club, can I also be president of Plaw-land??

His own country? Hell, I think he should run here in the U.S. He's not afraid of those slippery slopes. I can see all the conservatives cringe at the thought.

You can always go with the "Green" party PLaw.

TIS

TIS - If I get to be president, I'll choose you for my VP. We can promise a meatball in every pot!!

Wicka-whaaaaaaaaa!?

Anyone else find that humourous? It's either because that comes off as blaitently racist, and a completely outrageous claim, or because I have this vision of a bunch of highly religious hisidic Jews flying around in a 747...

Enzo Scifo, I have been interested in religion all my life. I took a religious studies class in high school (gr. 11 I believe) and I am taking Introduction To The Phil. Of Religion this Summer. Ironically, I was much more religious when I was younger. In my early teens I was pretty into Islam and discovering my roots and stuff but at 17 about I started to really lose interest in becoming very, well, let's say "religified."lol!

As far as informal study, learning starts the second you are born and does not (or at the very least should not stop) until you are in your grave. I've read from Al-Qur'an, The Bible (Old and New Testaments), in fact I own at least 20 Qur'ans in one form or another and 2 or 3 Bibles as well as the Hindu Gita. Reading from the text of a certain faith doesn't mean you belong to that faith or any faith. I am at peace with my religious beliefs and this is why I do not try at all to push mine on others. I believe in what I believe in and I will definitely do all I can to educate those who have any interest in the subject about Islam or whatever. I respect Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Muslims, Christians, Jews and those of all faiths. Whatever you do between Friday morning and Sunday evening is your business and yours only. The separation of Church and State is one of the foundations of Western Liberal Democracies and is essential to have any kind of true freedom. Theocracies do not last, do not work and are not to be desired.

As for the porn er...uh...and the whores and the booze and the gambling and the...well, let's just say I'll have a lot to explain to Allah when I meet him (whenever that may be ). I hear Allah is reasonable so hopefully we can reason together. :p

Even I would change my party and support him if Plawrence ran for office. Maybe I can be his speech writer.


DS

Where would you live? In the Green House?

If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.
-General William Tecumsah Sherman, in 1860-something.

I'll tell you who I would vote for, though.....Just about any woman, except Hillary Clinton, Condi Rice, or AppleOnYa.

If women ran the world, it would almost certainly be a better place.

Wicka-whaaaaaaaaa!?

Anyone else find that humourous? It's either because that comes off as blaitently racist, and a completely outrageous claim, or because I have this vision of a bunch of highly religious hisidic Jews flying around in a 747... [/b][/quote]They couldn't find anything better to do. Home Depot was closed, so they couldn't tie nooses, and the record store was sold out of Phil Collins albums.