This might have been already discussed before, but I'd like to pick your brains on this all the same.

Plaw's death shocked me. I didn't know him personally. To me, he was just a valued member of these boards. All I knew of him, before his death, was that he was a New Yorker, loved sports and politics and had this wonderful and rare ability to honestly tell all his thoughts about everything always keeping the utmost respect for other people. Definitely too little to maintain I actually knew him.

But now that he's gone, I miss him as a human being, as a friend. I picture his grave and I get tears in my eyes. I feel so sorry. As sorry as if he was someone I met in person.

I wonder can virtual friendship be considered as real as real life friendship? I know Plaw himself sort of answered this just in his last post here:

The friends I've made here - those who I've had the pleasure of meeting in person as well as those I haven't - mean every bit as much to me as any friends that anyone could make under any other set of circumstances imaginable.


and I know myself I do care (I really do!) for some of the members here. But how is this possible? What makes a friendship real? Knowing someone by mutual writing is enough? What about Plaw's voice? How does Afi laugh? How does JustMe look when she plays the piano? How are Mick's hands? Does he eat his nails? What does Don Cardi say when he picks up the phone? How does Partagas pronounce the word "orsacchiotto"? I'll probably never know.

Yet I probably know about their souls more than some of my real life friends'. And even if I never meet them, I know I've already met them in some sort of way. And they are not lesser friends just because I never embraced them.

What are your thoughts about it?

I believe in virtual friendship. Granted that you wouldn't fully know a person by only reading a couple of their thoughts, but it actually can help a lot to see through someone and not just see their front for the first time.

How else could I've known such a great lady from Italy having never visited Italy if not for virtual friendship? Moreover, what's so good about virtual friendship is that you are lucky you've not heard me laugh. It could've hurt your ear drums. But if you email me your phone number I promise I give you a call one of these days and do the damage!

Insert the wise words of plaw here.

A big part of friendship is communicating, exactly what we are doing over here.

I find this a difficult subject, because you should analyze the essantial meaning of friendship, and with me, such a discussion always ends in banality.

Had I been asked that question a few years ago, I probably would have said no. However I don't feel that way now. PLaw's passing has my mind and heart in somewhat of a turmoil, not fully understanding myself why I feel the way I feel. The only conclusion I must come to is that I sincerely care because I consider many here friends, and everyone here part of our special "group."

I think it really affected most of us. Why? Because we talked to him everyday, or a the very least read his posts, and throughout the years yes, we have gotten to know him and love him and care about him. How can you NOT get to know people to a certain degree when you post for years, communicating, reading thoughts & opinions, and for some of us, actually meeting some of the group? Do you have to be face to face to get to know someone?

I do think a lot depends too, on where you post regularly, but also think we lucked out (really we did), on this particular site, because for the most part, everyone has become close (cyberally anyway)and we are a caring group.

TIS

I consider someone whom I've never met (yet), but have talked to for many, many hours online to be my best friend. And I definately consider it to be a "real life" friendship, not just some virtual thing. He means the world to me, and I truly mean that.

Nothing will ever replace the old-fashioned way of actually being together (in the same room) with a friend. Of being able to see/hear them laugh, cry, or simply talk. Of being able to share a meal with them. Of being able to see their facial expressions and body language when making an argument. Of being able to hug or kiss them spontaneously just because you felt the need or desire to.

BUT

A virtual friendship affords us a good alternative when the physical closeness is impossible. It affords us the exchange of ideas, and in some ways by delaying our immediate thoughts it may even intensify our ideas because it affords us more time to choose our words more carefully.

If you're a fair-minded individual and actually "listen" to what another is saying here (on the boards) and you admire what they're saying you have the basis for becoming a friend. Over a period of time that friendship can become very real and important. It may not be as rewarding as a "real" face-to-face friendship but it can be very real, indeed.

For me, this site is proof that real friendships can be formed over the internet. In the 5+ years that I have been a member of these ( and the old ) boards, I have made some really good friends. Unfortunately I have not been able to meet some that I have made friends with here face to face. And by the same token I have been fortunate enough to meet others, that I have made friends with through this site, face to face.

Obviously when one finally meets another that they have made 'virtual' friends with over a length of time, in physically meeting it provides a better perspective of what that person is really like.

To echo what SC has pointed out, there is nothing like having the ability to sit across form each other be it over dinner, drinks or whatever. And to me, one of the important aspects of being able to finally meet a 'virtual' friend face to face is that while having a discussion it makes it much easier to understand where that person is coming from and what they are trying to say because you are able to see body language and facial expressions, which most of the time puts a different perspective and provides a much better idea of what that person is REALLY all about and trying to convey.

Many times when we have discussions or debates here, a person may be trying to get a point across in a certain way, but because that person is just typing words, and the other is just reading them off a forum page, we get the wrong impression or idea which can cause us to mis- interpret or misconstrue what that person is really trying to say. And because of that we sometimes form a false opinon of that person. Lord knows that I have been guilty of doing that, and at times have also been a victm of that because my post may have not really conveyed to the reader what I was truely trying to say. That person reading my post and not having the ability to physically see my body actions or facial expressions can cause them to misunderstand what I am acutally trying to convey.

My late friend Plaw and I, on many occassions, were guilty of misunderstanding and misconstruing each others posts early in our 'virtual' friendship that we made through these boards, especailly in the political spectrum. But thankfully when we finally did meet face to face, we were able to understand each other much better and more importantly were able to become real and true friends. I will always have wonderful memories of the great friendship and solid bond that Plaw and I were able to form as a result of something that started out as a 'virtual' friendship. And that applies to many others from here that I eventually had the priveledge of finally meeting face to face.

Hey, I've never met the originator of this topic, but yet I feel as though she is a true Pisano!


I really believe that over time, through a 'virtual' relationship, people can really have true and sincere feelings of friendship towards one another, without ever meeting face to face. However as SC pointed out, there is nothing like being able to physically interact, face to face, with a friend. To me it solidifies that bond of friendship.


Don Cardi

This is quite hard to address. In some ways, I agree with DC and SC that nothing can beat an old-fashioned "sit down". To be with the person you are friends with, give them a hug, hear their laugh, that is true.

However, I also feel that in some ways, this virtual place allows you to get to know someone more intimately. Given the anonymity of the internet, it is far easier to bare your soul and exchange the truth. In person, that's not always easy to do.

Ahhh, now I know why you were so apprehensive about finally meeting me face to face! :p





Don Cardi

Admit it, DC, you were shocked at how assertive I was in person, given how sweet and docile I am on here.

Actually I was shocked at how sweet and docile you were in person, given how assertive you are on here. :p


Don Cardi

I've found this to be so very true for me, and I think it's part of why I love it here. Around my close-knit group of family and friends in "real life," I'm quite outgoing and friendly, but I can be very shy around those I don't know as well. The anonymity of this site has helped me to toss that aside, and instead, open up to others, sharing many of my thoughts, feelings, and ideas easily.

I think some of us are a little confused along with being very sad about Plaw. I sometimes wonder why or how I'm crying about the loss of someone I've never met, but to me, this just proves the possibility of a virtual friendship. So many of us have never met Plaw, never heard his voice, seen his smile, felt his touch, yet we love him as if he were a real friend. I'm sure we would've all loved to have met him if it were possible, but simply reading his thoughts and feelings day in and day out was enough to make him someone special in our lives. For that, I am very thankful.

Gina, Once again you have hit the nail on the head, and done so with an eloquence that would've made Plaw, that lover of words, so very proud.

I don't bite my nails, Lav.

As silly as it sounds, I consider Capo, Vercetti, LLC, and Bogey to be closer to me than my real life uh..."friends."

I have been thinking about this ever since I learned about Plaw's death. The way I learned about it was from DC, whom I consider a friend (although we have never met) who IM'd me at my regular e mail account to tell me the sad news.

I have been on the internet for about twenty or so years now, and over that time I have made some friends, and even met a few people whom I had "met" online.

I think there is something very special about the Gangster BB boards that does not exist elsewhere. Probably because all of us have a passion for the Godfather and perhaps because we are all geeky enough to talk endlessly about whether Fredo knew Mike was going to kill him, who opened the drapes, and the like, we have inadvertantly opened a private part of ourselves to one another. Right now I am obsessing about the "dropped coins" clue in the recently added Godfather items thread!

Because of this, when we have sports or political discussions we can sometimes really get into it. While there is wisdom to be gained in these discussions, sometimes we go overboard with personal attacks... I know I have....but there is something about it that allows us to go on... its almost like when members of a family get into a fight and someone says something that is over the line. Other family members tell the offender that he/she has overstepped, apologies are given and we move forward.

Because we have such a vested interest in sharing our views about so many things, and because for some reason there are not any "posers" on these boards, this site is one that is special.

Plaw was a great voice of reason whether you agreed with him or not, and to say his shoes will be hard to fill is an understatement.

As we move forward, I think the best tribute we can pay him is to remind one another from time to time...."what would Plaw say to this?" And then sort things out.

For me, I have changed the slogan to my personal profile, and am going to leave it like that for a respectful amount of time, after which I'll go back to partisan politics, and Frankie Five Angels quotes.

To all of us on these boards....Cent'anni!

Last year after the convention was over I went threw withdrawl systems. I found myself looking at my photo album of that weekend,reading that convention thread over and over. And couldn't wait till the '06 convention. If I didn't consider these people I met true friends/family why would I feel that way. When I met these people in person I felt like if I knew them my whole life. Not just for a couple years on the net. That is why I look forward to the BB conventions. You get to meet great people, go to places that you've never been to before, try different kinds of food. Plus I get to speend a weekend with Becky just mom and daughter. Cleveland anybody??

Not silly. I feel the same way.

We need a chat sometime.

Lavi dear, there's such a thing: we converse on the net with more freedom, we have that illusion of safety when we hide our identity under a nickname. That's why we get to know real selves of each other, sometimes.
Nothing easier, my dear.

The best part about virtual friendships are that when you finally meet in person its like you've known them your whole life. When I finally met TIS it wasn't like meeting someone for the first time, it was like we met before.

And I think the friendships I've made on the boards are just as good/strong or better than the ones I made in real life. Like a certain "docile" lady that I talk to a lot, I don't know any other person I talk to as much. Or last summer when JG, PL and I would stay up til 3 in the morning playing poker, never did that with any of my real life friends.

The only problem with internet friends is that you don't see them as much as other friends......

Well, maybe if you'd learn how to drive, we could.... :p

I feel a comeback comin

Although I don't have anything even close to the strong feelings shared by others in this thread...I agree it certainly is possible to develop and maintain very good, and sometimes lifelong friendships over the internet on e-lists and boards such as this one.

I think it's because of the freedom to express feelings, agreements/disagreements before knowing all the people you are talking to...which isn't the case in real life. The 'no-holds-barred' kind of atmosphere (except for the 'personal insult' rule, of course) enables listmates get to know each other in a way that few in-person acquaintances do.

I think that's why one can truly make more friends online.

Apple

I'm in a VERY happy place right now, nothing you can say can get me riled up

Well maybe if you joined us more often.....


Don Cardi

I don't think that would do it, DC.

As this and the 'Remembering Plawrence' thread have indicated...the amount of time cyber-friends spend together in person, or even whether they ever meet at all...really has nothing to do with the level of feeling.

I'll also add that while making friends online, one also opens oneself up to ridicule, hurt and insult that can just come about during the course of a conversation. Not in the form of taboo personal insults, but other ways.

Sure, the overall cameraderie makes it worth the trouble, and it's really sweet how emotional people have gotten about the topic...but there's another part of the game.

Lots of give & take, push & pull...lots of lion to go along with the lamb.

Apple

I don't think people really understand my virtuality...

You known very well that any disagreements that members may have during debates, especialy political ones, NEVER carries over to our get togethers or gets in the way of friendships. Damn, look at Plaw and I! We've gone at it, back and forth for years, heated at times, be it over politics or about the way a fantasy league should be run. But we NEVER allowed those debates or disagreements, no matter how heated they may have become, to come between the friendship that we had. Whenever we would get together, even when he and I were together several days before he died, we would laugh, have fun, and just enjoy each other's company.

Can you sit there and sincerely tell me that when we all hung out in Somerset last year, or when we all had dinner together in Jersey, that you did not enjoy yourself and the company that you were in? I thought that you enjoyed yourself those evenings. You seemed to really enjoy the conversations that were taking place over dinner. I don't recall anyone insulting or ridiculing anyone else at those get togethers. All I recall was the fun, laughing, interaction and commoraderie that took place at those get togethers. If anything, as I said in an above post, those get togethers have solidified the friendships made on these boards, and have helped them develop into much deeper and sincere friendships.

I truly cannot understand why you feel that way. But your feelings are your feelings and at least you're honest about them. And I have to respect you for that.


Don Cardi

I'm in a VERY happy place right now, nothing you can say can get me riled up [/b][/quote]Oh, Yeah?? How about this - Trish is not that pretty!!

I'm in a VERY happy place right now, nothing you can say can get me riled up [/b][/quote]Oh, Yeah?? How about this - Trish is not that pretty!! [/b][/quote]That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

does THAT give you a sense of how happy I am