Hi there,

When Sonny yells at Tom, and says "If I had a war time consigliere I wouldn't be in this mess!", what does he mean? What is the significance of a "War time" consigliere? What credentials or knowledge was Tom missing?


I like the way when he realizes he hurt Tom with his words he says something like..."I didn't mean that. C'mon...Mom made some pasta...."

Thanks in advance.

Maple Leafs

I think it stems alot from the fact that he's not Italian, and I think that may have been a put down to some of the other Dons. I'm sure there's more to it then that though.

The easy thing to say is that Tom wasn't aSicilian. But this answer never made sense to me considering Vito's statement that he had made Tom into a Sicilian.

Genco was around during (I believe) several wars between the families, making him a wartime consigliere in that he was more aware of the dangers. Sonny was very angry after Vito was shot and he wanted to get revenge on everyone he could. Tom didn't learn this way, he learned from Vito not to act so hastily. Tom didn't want to kill everyone and start a war between the families like Sonny did. He wanted to avoid a long drawn out war at all costs because he knew it would cost alot of lives and money. Unfortunatly Tom laid back and thought the war was over when it wasnt, leading to Sonny's massacre.

Maple Leaf, we had this dicussion a while ago - actually I thnk it was back in July - I just don't know how to include the link. Check it out.
Hopefully someone will know how to include the link, otherwise do a quick search.

There you go

Wartime Consigliere Thread

Thanks for the help everyone, and for the link.

Poor Hagen.

I have to respectfully disagree with your statement above. Tom was never under the impression that the war was over. It was NOT Tom's inactions that cost Sonny his life, but it was Sonny's RE-action that cost him his own life. Tom was well aware that the war was not over. But Tom also realized that to keep killing enemies back and forth would cost the Corleone's not only many dollars, but it would also cost them strength both physically and politically! Tom was trying to buy time to see what would happen with the Don's health. If the Don were to die, Tom's suggestion was to make the deal because he was fully aware that if the Don died, half of the power of the Corleone's would be lost! But by making the deal he could possibly salvage what was left of the family, buy some time, and hopefully take it back to a respectful place in the underworld. It was the Don who was well respected by his associates and the politicians. If the Don were to live and make a recovery, Tom knew that the Don would figure out a way to get his son Micahel home, and end this costly war without losing any more money, political connections and lives. Vito later on confirms his confidence in Tom when he tells Tom that he never thought that he was a bad consigliere, but that he thought that Santino was a bad don. Tom did exactly what Vito had taught him to do. Tom was in NO WAY responsible for Sonny's death. Tom NEVER thought that the war was over.


Don Cardi

Don Cardi- I should have been clearer when I said he thought the war was over. I meant to say that Tom blamed himself for Sonny's death and in that time called himself "not a wartime consigliere". But I've always felt that Tom thought that way out of remorse for Sonny and in a moment of weakness not because it was the truth.

Believe me, I agree with everything you said. I've never felt Sonny's death was Tom's fault and I never bought into the "wartime consigliere" stuff either, I was just stating what Sonny meant by that statement. Tom has always been my favorite character and in my opinion the smartest and most level headed of all the sons.

I think ya'll are off on this. As Vito said, he didn't want all this for Michael. He wanted him as a respectable politician to hold the strings and part of his plan to accomplish that was to have Tom as Consigliere. Tom understood that war was only ever a last choice. Vito knew that about Tom and figured that Tom could pave Mike's way into the legitimate world.

That both Sonny and Mike did not think Tom a wartime Consigliere was their collective recognition of the truth. Tom was not prepared for the endemic ferocity of life in the Mafia. In that way he was not a Sicilian. He also was not a Sicilian in that he was just not very cunning. Vito's calling the Dons together was, in part, a recognition of Tom's insufficiencies because he realized that the Corleones could not win the war and, as the novel says, it would take the Don's strategic genius to retrieve the family's position.

The novel provides the answer here. In the novel, Puzo several times says that "no non-Sicilian could ever hope to equal a Sicilian in cunning." After Sonny was killed, Tom poured himself a drink and said to himself that he knew he wasn't a wartime consigliere (his exact words). "Genco would have smelled a rat." Why did he say this? Because, if he were Sicilian, he would have suspected that Carlo would never have lived with the humiliation Sonny inflicted on him without seeking revenge. He would have warned Sonny to look out for a plot exactly like the one that entrapped and killed him. Genco would have assumed that Carlo would have thirsted for revenge.

How were Sonny, Mike, and Fredo anymore prepared than Tom was for the "endemic ferocity of life in the Mafia"?? Also, Vito calling the Dons together was not due to Tom's insufficiencies. It was the smart thing to do because Vito wanted to avoid a long war. The most important thing was for him to get Michael home safely. Once Michael was home Vito knew he would do something about Sonny's death, but to do it any sooner would risk Michael's life.

We could argue all day about who is cunning and who isin't. Vito never doubted Tom's abilities. He claimed he had made Tom into a Sicilian. So to say he isin't cunning, is in my opinion, pretty weak.

That's right, but I think that "smelling a rat" had a little wider meaning. He thinks:
"He was, he knew now, no fit consigliere for a Family at war. He had been fooled, faked out, by the Five Families and their seeming timidity. They had remained quiet, laying their terrible ambush. They had planned and waited, holding their bloody hands no matter what provocation they had been given. They had waited to land one terrible blow. And they had. Old Genco Abbandando would never had fallen for it, he would have smelled a rat, he would have smoked them out, tripled his precautions." This means that there was not just Carlo to "smell", but the five families. Because using Carlo might be only one of their possible moves. It doesn't make very much difference from your surmise, only adds some depth to the situation.

Michael never gave an enemy a pass--not even his brother. That's pretty ferocious. Vito certainly was made consigliere by the Don, who even told him (in the novel), "Even though you're not a Sicilian, I made you one." But the Don kept things from--ferocious things, like Luca Brazi, who reported directly to the Don and never took orders from Tom. That tells me that the Don had some reservations about Tom's readiness for bloodshed.

I never doubted Michael's ferociousness, I was simply asking how he or the rest of the brothers were more prepared than Tom for this lifestyle, in response to Olivant's statement, because I don't think they were. If anything I think Tom and Sonny were the most prepared because they showed an interest in their Father's business from a young age.

As far as Vito keeping things from Tom, I don't think that means he had reservations about Tom's readiness for bloodshead. Vito asked Luca to talk, not to kill anyone right away. I always felt that Vito spoke to Luca directly out of respect for Luca coming to him on Connie's wedding day. Also, why would Vito trust Tom with so many other important issues, but not ones specifically about killings? Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but I just don't buy that Vito would make Tom a consigliere and actually try to keep murder away from him. It's not realistic. If anything he kept things away from his children to protect them, but I dont see how he did this with Tom.

Tom was basically the family's lawyer until Genco got sick. He was still "on probation." The Don may have had Luca report to him directly out of tradition, or because Tom hadn't formally been made consigliere yet. Or he may have suspected that Luca wouldn't take orders from Tom (in the novel, he describes Luca as "a natural force, like lightning"). But I think the Don knew that Tom lacked the fundamental Sicilian cunning and ferocity. I agree that he was smart--smater than Sonny, a better businessman--but not a wartime leader. As a lawyer, he'd rather compromise than fight. There's a telling phrase in the novel: after Michael agrees to whack Sollozzo and McCluskey, Tom pours them drinks "...glum, the statesman forced to go to war..."

Not sure if this applies directly to the Tom-Vito relationship, but...

In real life, I'm pretty sure the consigliere would never be giving orders. That seems to be the Underboss's job. On Mafia position charts ive seen, the consigliere always branches off directly from the boss and has no one under him, as if he is a seperate entity from the family, and only a counsler to the Don.

This quote incited me to think that maybe Tom would be giving orders to Luca whether he was official consigliere or not. correct if im wrong here.

Puzo fashioned an unusual Mafia family structure. An Irishman as a Consigliere was, of course, the most salient part of that unusual structure. However, he never cited an underboss and, apparently, he had Tom assuming some responsibilities in that area (that is not all that inconsistent with usual Mafia family structure since Consigliere's are not impotent when it comes to family operations). Puzo also structured the Corleones with only two capos to boss upwards of a thousand soldiers. Not that is not only unusual, but impractical.

Tom didn't give orders under Vito, he passed on orders from Vito. I think the only time he actually gave orders was when Michael was absent in NY and Havana, and Michael explicitly left him in charge.

Actually in the novel, Puzo wrote that Sonny also had his own regime. I am not sure if the three of them ( Clemenza, Tessio, and Sonny ) covered the 1000 soldiers under them. If so, that would be a bit more practical.

Don Cardi

It is said in the novel that Vito considered making Sonny his underboss once. We don't know what was his decision, though.