Because others like Al D'Arco went running to the feds in such situations, like a child running to his momma. It's refreshing to see someone flex their gangster machismo and face the consequences of the life they chose, because so many never do. It's said that John Nardi of Cleveland's last words after getting blown up was, "It didn't hurt." People love stuff like that.

I heard ya. And I agree that it's virtuous.

But you gotta remember that when you read about these things from the comfort and safety of your den chair, its cool. But in real life, not reel life, when you're the guy that's gonna actually get the two in the head, it no longer looks so attractive.

In reality, in real life. Don't become a rat like D'Arco did. That was more stupid than anything else. Especially that he wasn't even facing any criminal charges at the time he flipped.

But just disappear like I said. Take your cash (provided that you have enough) and take off!

Most of these neighborhood guys that would track you don't know where they're going once they leave Brooklyn or Downtown NY anyhow. So just fly to Hawaii, Europe, or some other far off place and wait it out. Had he done so, Sonny Black would be alive today.

Truth be told, I don't think Al D'Arco had enough funds to do what I'm saying even if he had wanted to. He was half-broke. Even after he became capo, because even though he was now earning well. He only got to stay in that position less than a few years before the trouble hit. So he may have even thought that way, but couldn't pull it off with short money.

So he went the other way, and ran to the FBI

I don't know how much cash Al D'Arco had I read the book but forgot how much he was pulling in monthly, it's been years. I think as a capo he was making more than a captain in the US military lol. These guys need to get out more, mobsters in Italy travel the world, mobsters in America barely leave the neighborhood, and if they do it's the same places, Florida or Las Vegas.

Gravano said Persico was one of the smartest and respected men in the Mob..His exact quote from Underboss went something like this "but no matter how smart you are sometimes you just cant avoid getting tripped up"that other people were the cause.Gravano also said that Quack Quack had balls but not too much in the brains department.Ruggiero really almost single handily destroyed Cosa Nostra.The ripple effects of those tapes in his house were enormous.Ol Tony Bananna's may have been smart but he may have committed the single dumbest move in mafia history.And his ending was brutal he paid the price

He should have blamed it all on Mitra and Ruggiero. Blamed them and that Colombo crew for vouching for him. Layed low until the Feds picked him up, done his 10 years and maybe the lay of the land would be different when he got out. Then maybe form an alliance with Canada, zips, and Spero and taken out Massino. I'm guessing nobody would miss that fat fuck except his brother in law. If Sonny was boss and gets a life sentence is their anyone that thinks he would've ratted like Massino?

Take off like Enrico Ponzi? Moved to Idaho to be a goat herder or rancher or some shit. Sure you bought yourself 17 years of freedom. Looking over your shoulder but eventually you're gonna get caught.

Enrico Ponzo was a fugitive, Sonny Black wouldn't have been a fugitive, except from the mob.

Yep Sonny Black could have disappeared. The feds were not looking for him at the time

He would not have been a fugitive from justice. Any indictment related to the Brasco probe would have come later, after he left.

He would have been home free....but alas, it was not too be for him

I always think about Valachi that way. Not that I like Valachi mind you. Not because he flipped, but because he just comes across as a prick. But to be locked up in maximum security with all the other wiseguys, many of them more than "capable", and thinking they want you dead. What a miserable way to end up. No wonder he snapped and killed the wrong man.

Yeah Donnie Brasco made cases against that whole crew but somehow Sonny Black wouldn't have been indicted. He could have ran off scott free with no pending case against him. Come on man. Pistons had him on loansharking gambling RICO conspiracy and God knows what else. But you're saying they didn't have enough to insict him? That it he took off he wouldn't be a fugitive?

You should know how the system works. Tons of mob guys fled before the indictment came down. Look at Amuso. He took off before the case came down. Was he not a fugitive because he took off before they filed the case?

Hey whitey bulger fled before indictments dropped. Maybe he wasn't #2 and and then #1 on the fbi's top ten most wanted list. Ponzi also fled before indictments dropped so how was he a fugitive. Lol. You guys crack me up sometimes. You can take off months ahead of time. Once it drops you're a fugitive. Sonny black could've disappeared the day he learned about Donnie. He wouldn't have been in the clear. Once the Feds dropped that indictment he would be a fugitive

What I find funny is that as extensive as the Donnie Brasco operation was, he really only put a handful of guys away for a few years, maybe some for several years. But if I recall he didn't put one guy away for life (meaning life sentence), and the 3 capo murders still wouldn't be solved until another 2 decades. That operation was a waste if you ask me, but at least we got a good book and movie out of it.

I agree the Donnie Brasco operation did minimal damage. My point is if those guys fled and later indictments came down would they be fugitives if they didn't show up for their court date? Yes or No?

Yes, but if you are going to take off you don't think about shit like that you just go away. Other guys lasted decades that way, yeah they had to live with caution but hey, I guess it's better than 2 in the brain. But Sonny was a man's man. RIP Sonny, I'll see you on the other side.

That's still not the point. How many guys did decades on the run?

Whitey Bulger and Enrico Ponzo lasted quite a while. So did Mikey Cigars. But not many guys go on the lam. Who cares if they eventually got caught, it was fun while it lasted.

Sonny Black and Lefty were definitely Cosa Nostra to the bone. Sonny knew that he was going to his death.but he followed the rules. You get called,you go in. And Lefty took his sentence,never uttered a peep, and to his dying day swore he would "get that mother*ucker Donnie if it's the last thing I do".

Other than Lefty and Nicky Santora, (20 yrs each) all of the convictions from the "Brasco" operation
resulted in sentences of 12 yrs or less.

We will never know what Sonny would have gotten,since his body was found 12 days After his Federal Racketeering case (US. Vs Domenick Napolitano, et.al ) began.

people do stupid things or make terrible decisons but may be brilliant, do you mean just illiterate or made mistakes?

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Thats not exactly correct Colonel. Let me explain something.

If you flee AFTER the indictment falls, say you jump bail after you are arrested and arraigned. Then you are correct. You are a fugitive from justice. They can also probably hit you with an Obstruction of justice charge as well for fleeing and having fucked up their case.
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But if you take off BEFORE the indictment falls, you are NOT a fugitive. Yes, the indictment is still out there pending for you. You have an open warrant for your arrest. But I do not believe you can be charged as either a fugitive, or on obstruction of justice, even though they may damn well know you are aware of the charges against you. Because they cannot prove that you had prior knowledge about the case and indictment coming, etc. Even though it may be painfully obvious.

Case in point; I had a friend who was very, very close to me (one of my best friends). He knew he was in deep shit because they empaneled a grand jury probe about his activities. He wasn't called yet, but we knew that many witnesses called before that grand jury were asked about him.

He and I even talked about his pending headache. And after doing some pondering, he made the very wise decision to take off before the shit might hit the fan.

The result was that some months after he fled NYC, a state indictment came down against 5-6 guys. He was one of them. He ended up with a warrant for his arrest. But he WASN'T a fugitive per se. LE repeatedly went by his house, business, and haunts searching for him for over a year or two. They repeatedly quizzed his family and friends about his whereabouts. I was one of them.

If I remember correctly he stayed "on the lam" for over 6-7 years before he finally wanted to come back home and had his lawyer reach to law enforcement to try and make a deal.

He ended up with a bullet in the can. One year! He did 9 months and he got out..... OVA!

His co-defendants all got much heavier sentences upon conviction. 5 years, 8 years, and more. My friend was central to the case. He got 1 year and did 9 months.

PS: by the way, this was a state case. While he was in hiding, the feds came down with a superseding indictment almost 3 years down the pike. They didn't even bother indicting my friend in the case. For whatever reason, his name was left out of it. I think he may have been named as an "unindicted co-conspiriitor." (we personally think they wanted to keep their case "clean" and didn't wanna have any loose ends like a guy who they couldn't nab in it). Those charged federally received even more time.

So in our opinion they dropped him from the indictment altogether to have a neat and tidy case they could wrap up with a 100% conviction rate.

So be taking off months before the indictment, and staying "on the lam" for years he saved himself an entire federal case, not to mention he was able to plea down his original state case because embarrassed prosecutors and the rackets squad just wanted to close out the matter and not leave open drawers. The original prosecutor and certain witnesses were no longer available for a trial, maybe their evidence was faulty after all those years. Some of the detectives on the original case may have retired and were not available for a courtroom appearance, etc. Whatever their motives were to offer him that plea to close out the case, he ended up with a very sweet deal.

Especially considering that he was one of the lead targets and defendants in the case.

He did plead to 1 count, but NONE of the counts he faced became anything more than the original charges he faced anyway. NO fugitive status, NO Obstruction of justice for disappearing BEFORE the case hit. etc.

So there you go. A perfect example of the potential benefits of ducking out BEFORE the indictment drops.

Now I do realize that its not an easy thing to do. In his case, he had a young wife and kid. But he had the means, money, and connections to do this. He had to leave his beloved family for years. He was able to sneak in a few times and visit them. He also had family and a friend supply him with more cash while he was on the lam. Many people don't have those resources to do that. He was heartbreaking all around for him and his family.

But hell, no matter how you do it, its still better than doing a ton of time (or in Sonny Black's case, getting killed). My friend figured he'd get 10-15 years in jail. For a pound (5 years) he would have stayed put. But he thought he was gonna get buried under a lot of time.

Whitey Bulger fled before his indictment after being tipped off. He was on the FBI Top Wanted list. He was even #2 and then #1. Please explain. Unless you want to get into the wordplay of what a "fugitive" means.

If you take off before the indictment you can't be charged with obstruction or being a fugitive? You got 10 murder charges what's it's matter if your charged with obstruction or if you're not technically a fugitive? The Government is still hunting you down like a dog regardless of labels. Take the L on this argument guys. You can't see the Forest from the trees imo.

There are tons of benefits to going on the lam and ducking indictments. Hear the case, don't go on trial with codefendants, some witnesses might forget or pass away with time.

That's not the argument. You guys said if Sonny black just lammed it a couple years he would've been okay, he could come back scott free.

First of all Sonny Black wasn't facing murder. Second of all the REAL discussion between us was if he took off he would not have been around to get killed. Right or wrong here? I rest my case!

NOt to mention if I take your words and argument of facing 10 murder charges against me?? Lol... Then WTF would I hang around to wait for them to place 10 bodies at my doorstep??

I'd have to be crazy. No??

Take off like a bat out of hell BEFORE then come to arrest me. Because if I am facing 10 murders as you said in your previous comment, I'm NOT getting any bail once they pinch me. And I'm surely getting convicted on at least a few of those murders. Right or wrong? Life imprisonment with NO parole for sure. Ever!

So I'd take off and hide in Italy, Sicily, France, Germany, China, Australia, Etc, etc. But I AIN'T staying around waiting to get pinched like some sucker! Especially for a murder case.

Even a Rico you face 20 by mistake. On each count I might add.

Plus Sonny knew he was most likely getting clipped.

I don't know about you Colonel, But I'm not walking myself into either situation. I like myself way too much for that. Lol

Let them search for me. They may NEVER catch me. But even if I got caught years down the pike. At least I had all those additional years of freedom.

Instead of walking myself in like a sucker and taking it on the chin! Or getting myself whacked out like Napolitano did.

Right or wrong??

One more thing we"ll were at it.

If Sonny Black took off before the indictment came down. Yes! He would have had an open case against him. Of course!

But he could have stayed out on the lam. Waited till he saw what ALL his codefendants got after trial. And then made a deal to come (just like my friend did). He most likely could have worked a better deal for himself, even if he had to do a bid, than being in the dock with everybody and taking his chance up front with the rest of them... Thats a fact!

But the BIGGEST benefit here is that he would not have been around to get called in and get slaughtered. Fuck Joe Massino, that fat fuck stool pigeon. And fuck all of those assholes who hurt him.

If Sonny could come back from the grave today and do it all over again. With what he's seen transpire in the last 20 years. What do you think he would say and do? LOL

And don't give me that baloney about he's all Cosa Nostra. He was a respectful guy who believed in the life. You saw how far it got him right?

His kid got all fucked up after his death. The kid went down the drain. And he hurt his personal blood family for a bunch of guys who didn't give two fucks about him.

NO smart, savvy, mafioso is walking in. I know a few other guys who did the same thing. Went to their deaths for no reason. Why???

Because they were the few good guys among a sea of scumbags. The true believers. Sad

And they were NOT thinking straight at the time.

Nah. Sonny Black could have, and should have, taken off for all the reasons I enumerated above.

He would have lived, even if he had to do a short jail term down the pike.

It was a waste.

I alway's thought about that...& i always liked Sonny Black...I think (& know) what u just stated is not only true...but he would be around 2 day if he played his cards right....He even might have enough tough power & sense 2 beat all odds..(Massino & Co.)...the commision is is another story....he could have ran 2 fuckin' Aruba & lived high on the hog on some deserted beach in a rinky dink shack 4 the rest of his life running some kinda bullshit scam 2 get him through...

However he would have ended up is still better than being murdered, getting your hands chopped off, and then found in some abandoned ditch. Am I right hoodlum? Lol

Henry hill summed the mentality of that life pretty well. Anyway else to live was for suckers. Sonny black would rather die than to eat pasta with ketchup in a trailer park in Alabama. The 10 or so years they get to live "That Life" on "Top of the World" is better than a hundred years as a working class stiff getting up everyday at a set time making shit money.

That's their mentality, but myself I'm a working class stiff with a family. I never knew different, but if I ever got a taste of that life Id probably think the same way. YOLO! Wanna party most nights, wake up when you want, drinks, dinner concerts,fancy cars nice women, wads of cash in your pocket for nice hotels? Live life on the edge? Who would choose a 9 to 5?f give me a half a chance I'd take 10 years of the high life and a bullet to the head as opposed to 40 years of a regular job/life then dying of a heart attack.