Tom never learns! Tom keeps giving Michael opportunities for Michael to hurt him

Roth's murder had been sorted Then Tom asks in front of Neri and Rocco
Tom asked in front of an audience – Rocco and Neri - So Michael had to handle it in front of the audience

So that leaves Ola's visit scene [Anthony's party] the only [unwarranted!] scene Michael was "harsh" to Tom

Did Sonny? He told him That's easy for you to say, Tom, he's not your father

...and then Tom said, "I'm as much a son to him as you or Mike"--and Sonny acknowledged it with a shrug.
What's curious about that scene is that Tom didn't include Fredo in his retort. Michael was estranged from the family at the time, and Tom included him as Vito's son. The novel tells us Fredo was the dutiful son--and he wasn't included..

It could just be that Fredo's not there, but Mike and Sonny are.

Interesting little twist, though. In the book the line is, "I was as good a son to him as you or Mike, maybe better." So he might be acknowledging that Freddy was even more obedient ("good boy") than Tom.

In the movie, that's changed to: "I'm as much a son to him as you or Mike." Maybe it's something that I've been slow to pick up, but I've recently noticed the parallel between young Vito and Tom, each finding protection under the roof of a family not his own. So there could be some emotional connection there, beyond Vito just taking pity on someone Sonny brought home.

How did you get your hands on this! We'd forgotten this gem

Do we infer Sonny didn't regard Tom as a brother
Poor Tom so wanting to be “regarded as a brother”

Sonny also said
Whilst Sonny apologised it showed what was deep inside

Thanks Pete for the parallel tidbit between the orphans, young Vito and Tom

Poor Fredo didn't get included in anything!

What would Vito have done? If...

Vito was invulnerable having beefed up his security after “his decision not to accept Sol's deal” and Sollozzo couldn't get to Vito

Michael had gone back to college

Fredo was well Fredo....

Connie in her abusive marriage with Carlo and Vito's inaction to Connie's plight

Sonny, Don in training, gets killed same scenario

Maybe misunderstanding the question: pre-war, Sonny was perceived as the Tattaglias' ally in setting up the drugs operation. If he was assassinated, I think that you would have to assume that the Tattaglias/Sollozzo had targeted the entire Corleone hierarchy, and act accordingly.

I reckon no different
He would have uprooted Michael and made him Don in training, take over the Corleone crime empire

I too tend to believe Vito “would have uprooted” - the clean Michael, a war hero who's never been busted for the rackets – to “take over the Corleone crime empire”

Vito playing weak! would have still planned all the dirty work - killing of Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael “I never wanted this for you” son to carry out or perhaps Vito carries out the murders himself

The Corleones were in full strength with Clemenza, Rocco, Neri, Cicci and even Tessio all on board but Vito would still need a heir

Vito's “goal” of 'legitimacy' thus placing the impossible, unrealistic burden of Michael's “obsession” to become 'legitimate'

I am not sure about Carlo though
Would the always 'nice guy' Vito make his daughter Connie a widow even though “You [Carlo] have to answer for Santino”

Mr mustachepete could you, uh -- amplify your answer a bit? Thanks

How “Sonny was perceived as the Tattaglias' ally in setting up the drugs operation”

The Tattaglias/Sollozzo thought that Sonny, like themselves, was in favor of setting up the drugs operation. Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the original question.

I doubt Vito would have "uprooted" Michael.

First of all, in this scenario, Vito hasn't been shot, so he presumably would have more energy to continue to function as Don, and his enemies would have been less likely to view him as "slippin'."

Like Michael, Vito's long-term plan for the Family was legitimacy ("Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone"). He would not have abandoned his life's work by bringing Michael back for anything but the most dire of situations. I don't think that Sonny's assassination would have qualified, especially if Vito were still healthy.

Also, don't forget that Michael was pretty determined to go his own way until the shooting/hospital incident. Without those, I don't see him allowing himself to be uprooted by Vito. The more Vito would have tried to pull Michael in, the more Michael would have resisted. Ultimately, Vito couldn't have forced Michael to become his apprentice.

While it may be true, as Vito says in the novel, that "every man has but one destiny," and Michael's may well have been to become Don, I don't see it happening at that point under that scenario.

Good analysis Woltz. I concur.

Woltz, I agree with everything you posted. I'd like to take it a step farther:

I think if Vito'd had his way, Michael would have finished college and gotten a law degree. Then Michael would run for Congress--probably from an address of convenience in Vito's old neighborhood in Little Italy, where the Corleone name was still magic. He'd win easily. From there, it'd be "Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..." Then Michael, using Vito's money and influence, would work to legalize gambling at either the national or state level, thereby achieving the legitimacy that Vito wanted.

Of course, all this would be contingent on Michael accepting Vito's guidance--a big "if," for the reasons you point out. But, Michael might have mellowed toward Vito over time, especially if he saw himself as helping to legitimize the family instead of becoming a Mafioso. I base that in part on that whole rationale he gave Kay when he was wooing her in New Hampshire ("My father is no different than other powerful men with responsibility for others..."), and partly because I think he developed a strong affinity for power.

Where was Sonny in Vito's plan? I think Sonny would be the head of an ever-diminishing "olive oil business," and providing strong-arm for his brother when needed. This might have led to an interesting sub-plot: Sonny (like Fredo), resentful about his diminished role vis-a-vis his younger brother, leading to conflict and possible violence.

Sure thing Turnbull “if Vito'd had his way, Michael would have finished college and gotten a law degree”
So would Michael!

Murder of the Top Mafia Boss' son and Vito is now left without a heir due to Sonny's assassination....What are Vito's options?

Thanks Pete for your take Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's deal indeed

Can't trump! that Woltz

My only debating points -
Wouldn't “Sonny's assassination” qualify as “most dire of situations” ie: Murder of the Top Mafia Boss' son and Vito is now left without a heir

Sure thing Woltz whilst “Michael was pretty determined to go his own way” the assassination of a member of his family his own brother would have fired Michael up?


Whilst Vito could “continue to function as Don, and his enemies would have been less likely to view him as "slippin'."

1. What happens when Vito could no longer to do so?
2. What are Vito's options?

Would Vito hand over “his life's work” to Clemenza and Tessio?

Vito needs an “apprentice” Don in training to “take over the Corleone crime empire”
So Michael spending however many years at College and then coming back to learn the family business....

Besides Vito is not Roth! Vito never thought “he's gonna live forever”!

Carlo live until Vito died
legitimacy the biggest problem

Michael come back from Sicily become his apprentice Sonny died same

options? finished college and gotten a law degree become his apprentice No college same
if not Michael who “take over the Corleone crime empire”

If you walk this question back into the novel, Vito had already decided as of Connie's wedding that Sonny was not suited to lead the crime organization. He had already decided that he had to find a new successor. So, Vito was without an heir whether Sonny lived or not.

To add another nuance from that scene in the novel:
After Connie's wedding, Paulie and Clemenza drive Kay back to her hotel. "He [Michael] had led her to believe that he was an alian in his father's world. Now Clemenza was assuring her, in his wheezing gutteral voice that the 'old man' thought Michael was the best of his sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business."

Michael obviously didn't tell that to Clem, so Vito must have--already deciding on his heir.

There's never been any indication this was filmed, has there? It could have been a very funny scene, Clemenza poking his round face up from the back seat.

Don't know if it was never filmed (thousands of feet of film were left on the cutting room floor, including one where Michael kills Fabrizzio with a lupara in his pizza joint), but it would have made an amusing addition to the movie.

I reckon even after the killings, Michael still could have finished college and gotten a law degree Vito still could have used the Corleone magic in Little Italy for lawyer Michael to run for congress but he chose to drag him into Mafia

He could never hand over “his life's work” to Clemenza and Tessio even after promising them they could form their own family


No doubt legitimacy was the biggest problem
It was Vito's “goal” So how do you figure Michael's long-term plan was legitimacy?

Vito and Tom have talked many times about Michael's future He didn't know of Pop's plans for ("Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone") until the garden scene

He was pretty determined to go his own way, away from the family business That's my family, Kay It's not me until the attempt on Vito's life So I reckon he would do the same when Sonny lost his life
Vito may not have to uproot him He would have volunteered like he did to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey

He told Kay about the bandleader's story
If Clemenza knew that the 'old man' thought Michael was the best of his sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business." what good a law degree would be for Mafioso Michael especially when time is of the essence

If he knew, hothead Sonny could have too leading to conflict and possible violence (like Fredo), even before anything happened

Mr mustachepete you are contradicting....!

From what we saw in the movie, among others -

• Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene

Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace

• Vito to Michael in the Garden scene

I knew that Santino was going to have to go through all this

It seems to me even though Vito had misgivings that “Sonny was not suited to lead the crime organization” if Sonny had not been killed Sonny would be Vito's heir and would have become the Don

I am confused!

So which was Vito's plans for Michael?
Don Michael Corleone or "Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..."

Michael seemed to be totally in the dark about neither plan

He was pretty determined to go his own way, murder attempt or murder Different Michael

Congressman or Mafioso
But I never -- I never wanted this for you Yeah, right

Vito doesn't blame Tom. He tells him "I never thought you were a bad consigliere."

Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene
Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace.