I know many will say that Mike beat Roth which isn’t wrong since he killed him and Frankie didn’t testify. However rewatching it again lately I feel Roth certainly left his mark on Mike and even won in a small way. Think about it at the beginning of GF2 Mike is pretty much on top. He has his family in Lake Tahoe while also having a grip in NY through Frankie. Then after the attempted hit Mike is obsessed with revenge alienating much of his family in the process. Also because of Roth he ends up killing Fredo, two of his top capos Rocco and Frankie are dead, Kay leaves him, Tom is disillusioned by him. You could argue Mikes criminal empire is weakened although he still has power but still not like the beginning. His immediate family is certainly weakened as far as wanting yo be near him anymore. Let’s say GF3 never happened do you think Roth did tremendous damage to Mike despite the fact that Mike technically won their war? Interested to hear your thoughts!!

Yes. Also, Michael's carefully cultivated reputation as a businessman is opened to scrutiny by the Congressional hearings. Despite what we see in GF3 the sort of publicity driven by the hearings is something Michael would never be able to shake off.

Good Point

Thoughtful post, Crusher And, an original question, at that!

Yes, absolutely agree. Michael "won" in the end by killing Roth. But the cost to Michael was tremendous. Michael had to realize that Roth was winning until nearly the end. Roth exploited his greed for Havana and blinded him to Roth's plot against him. Roth corrupted his brother and forced Michael to kill Fredo. The Tahoe attack, which Roth engineered, failed to kill Michael, but it was the last straw in Kay's crumbling relationship with Michael. He not only lost her, he lost his unborn son. The attack also put in place Pentangeli's betrayal of Michael, and Michael being subpoenaed to appear before the Senate subcommittee. Even though Pentangeli recanted his affidavit, damaging testimony against Michael went on the record--before a TV audience of millions.

That's the story of Michael's life--constantly winning battles, constantly losing wars.

. Thank You

It was a classic Pyrrhic victory for Michael.

To take this back one more step, we also know Barzini was encouraging Moe into confrontation with the Corleones. So Moe gets whacked, Roth is enraged at Michael, and from the grave Barzini sees what he likes best: two of his rivals clawing at each other.

How to define win?

Michael won his criminal war with Roth, but lost his personal one. One could say that his desire to win the criminal war blinded him to the implications for his soul.

As III made clear, he realized too late that he was doomed to a life of regret.

. Yeah but Roth certainly had a huge impact on that. Because of Roth Mikes two capos are gone along with his brother. Yes he still had Neri but his criminal family is not nearly as strong as it was in the beginning. Plus the Rosatos are still on the loose and we are never given an explanation on how that is resolved or if Mike even cares at that point

My take, for what it is worth!

There were no winners as in the end -
1. both Michael and Roth were beaten
2. the cost to both Michael and Roth was tremendous
3. both Michael and Roth lost everything

As Michael said

• Roth wanted “to live in Israel as a Jew in the twilight of his life” but the High Court of Israel ruled otherwise and kicked him out of Israel
• Roth was stateless unable to secure refuge in any country for any cash gift
• Roth was forced to return to America where the Police was waiting at the Airport to take Roth into custody which presented Michael with the opportunity to kill Roth
• Roth lost his “carefully cultivated reputation” as a retired investor on a pension and opened to scrutiny about his worth over $300 million dollars

It seems Roth's wife Marcia was not at the Airport with her husband when Roth returned from Israel to America? unsure whether -

• Marcia was allowed / opted to stay on, in Israel or
• Marcia was given an absentee ballot! to vote in the Presidential elections or
• Roth lost Marcia when Marcia found out / realised what her husband and “Mr Paul's” business was

Sure thing lucab19 “It was a classic Pyrrhic victory for Michael” My take, for Roth as well

This ludicrous no win situation - whereas both Michael and Roth could have lived happily for a hundred years!
It was Roth who broke the peace resulting in both Michael and Roth paying dearly

Anybody kinda rooting for Roth to beat Mike?

My only debatable point in your sworn! list whilst “Roth corrupted his brother” Roth didn't “force Michael to kill Fredo”
ie: Michael still didn't have to kill Fredo

Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death He had the money and the resources Besides if Mama had lived longer.....

1. Nobody got Havana in the end Nobody
2. Roth didn't get Michael's $2 million

If “The Tahoe attack, which Roth engineered” had killed Michael, Roth undoubtedly would have won outright indeed Winner takes it all!

If Michael had died?
Then Roth picks up [all] the Corleone business in the aftermath of total disarray, infighting, bloodshed and nobody figures out it was Roth all along

Roth would have continued to live like our average neighbour, harmless old man, his “carefully cultivated reputation” as a retired investor on a pension intact Nobody any the wiser

I doubt Michael would ever “be able to shake off” his evil, ruthless, murderous Mafia past but I agree Pete the “scrutiny by the Congressional hearings” wouldn't have helped

Everybody undoubtedly knew who Michael really was that Michael came to Nevada masquerading as 'legitimate' decent businessman - in his oily hair, dressed up in those silk suits - for 'legitimate' gambling business after consolidating his nefarious power in New York

A couple of side questions! please

• Would Roth have let Michael whacking Moe Greene go?

If Michael hadn't been chiselling into Roth's empire eg: moving Klingman out and taking over the Hotel part owned by Roth [with Roth's blessing!]

How'd Michael know it was Roth?

• How was Roth, Barzini's rival?

1. Didn't seem Barzini and Roth ever crossed paths?
2. Do you mean Barzini likes best when Barzini's arch-rival the 'mighty' Corleones being clawed?

• What would Vito see from his grave?!

Thanks! Pop for leaving a murderous legacy for “I never wanted this for you” son

Roth was a formidable adversary but let's not overstate the impact he had on Michael.

Was the Family really not as strong as it was in the beginning? Where's the evidence of that? Rocco's death?

We see in GFIII that Michael is richer, more powerful and more "legitimate" than ever. If the Family sustained any damage, it was temporary.

Obviously, Michael suffered great personal blows, but those were mostly self-inflicted.

It was his controlling, unsentimental personality that drove away Kay and Fredo. Roth's role was incidental.



That's a good observation.

The Rosatos were involved in a public shootout with police. Hard to imagine they are still on the loose.

I always assumed that they were swept up along with Cicci and Frankie but, you're right, that was left unresolved.

[quote=Lana]My only debatable point in your sworn! list whilst “Roth corrupted his brother” Roth didn't “force Michael to kill Fredo”
ie: Michael still didn't have to kill Fredo

/[quote]

I started a thread on this subject a while back:
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=944563&Searchpage=1&Main=37785&Words=%2BDid+%2Bthey+%2Bhave+%2Bto+%2Bdie&Search=true#Post944563
Most people who responded agreed with you that Fredo didn't have to be killed. I think Fredo had to be killed.

. Part was self inflicted but part of it was done by Roth. Remember Mike had some luck on his side as well. If not fir Kay he would have surely been shot in the assassination attempt. Also If Fredo did really want to turn on Mike he wouldn’t have told him about Questadt. So Mike certainly had some luck on his side and took advantage of it to finally beat Roth. But I still feel Roth left a huge mark on Mike

When I first saw GF III, I immediately recognised Carmine Caridi in the Hotel assassination scene. He's the guy who gets (somewhat ironically) killed going back for his "lucky coat." So I naturally assumed that he was playing Carmine Rosato again, implying that he had made peace with Michael. It was only some time later that I discovered that he was playing an entirely different character, Albert Volpe.

An unnecessarily confusing bit of casting.

Neither achieved his goal any win was hollow Then adding insult to injury Nobody got Havana in the end Nobody

Marcia must have been furious they were eating tuna sandwich for lunch, sitting on over $300 million dollars

Roth was seething underneath for vengeance but I reckon he Would have let Michael whacking Moe Greene go? If Michael hadn't detonated his ticking time bomb

True Woltz let's not overstate the impact he had on Michael and luck had little or nothing to do with it

No doubt he would have wiped out all his enemies whether we are given an explanation or not

I also would say it is a given Michael would have wiped out all his enemies they be Fabrizio, Cicci, Rosato brothers “whether we are given an explanation or not”

If the Rosato brothers “were [not] swept up along with Cicci and Frankie” after their “public shootout with police“ and are “still on the loose” Michael would have resolved it by making the Rosato Brothers answer for these troubles with Frankie

I don't disagree Fredo could be taken in by another of Michael's enemies as happened with Roth / Ola but as we debated Fredo's killing, further in -

What if appollonia didn't die ?

Whilst Michael's silhouette would have made a perfect target and from memory, Michael was seemingly standing at the window for quite some time too before Kay's "Michael Why are the drapes open?" the assassins still had Michael in the confined space of their bedroom with machine guns - shooting fish in a barrel - still couldn't hit their target!

Michael was slippin'

Besides Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth as obviously "Fredo [still] did really want to turn on Mike"

I reckon no doubt Fredo set his kid brother up to be murdered for the Donship and obviously "Fredo [still] did really want to turn on Mike" and will always be a threat and liability, his sort of deep resentment never goes away, always simmering underneath but Michael was able to contain this risk until Mama Corleone's natural death and there was nothing stopping him continuing the same arrangements

My take, for what it is worth!
I think you are being too harsh! on Michael There were many a times Michael showed his sentimental personality

Kay's gripe seems to have been that Michael had not delivered on his promise of making the Corleone family completely legitimate

Both Michael and Kay were delusional about “legitimacy” but Michael was at least trying!
If organized crime could wash their blood money clean, become “legitimate” let alone in five years RICO would probably be out of business!

There were some tender, loving moments – among others

• Michael promised “We'll go to the city we'll see a show and we'll have dinner” when Kay was griping that Michael "had to see his father and his people" on his return from Moe Greene meeting
• Michael reaches for and held Kay's hand at Anthony's party
• Michael and Kay, when they were dancing, seemed quite loving
• Michael and Kay spoke lovingly about the baby feeling like a boy
• Michael sees the drawing Anthony left for him on his pillow, reaches over and strokes Kay's cheek

Perhaps if not for the Tahoe shooting - Roth's role - Kay may have continued living the life she had chosen

Fredo's gripe

Michael always took care of Fredo and treated Fredo no different to Vito or better

I disagree. I doubt Michael was really “trying” to be legit. Similar to the end of GF1 Mikecwas just bullshitting Kay telling her what she wanted to hear. Kay finally realized that it was never going to win and Mike was grown more ruthless/cold hearted. I mean even before the hit attempt on his life they were planning of blackmailing Feartu probably by murdering a prostitute

I'd put it a little differently. Michael wanted to think of himself, and be thought of, as "legitimate"--but on his terms, his definition. The scene in GF where he woos Kay in New Hampshire says it all: "My father is no different than other powerful men with responsibility for others..."Senators and Presidents don't have men killed." "Now who's being naive, Kay?" Or, in 3: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." Was he ever out? Even while Abbandando was BS-ing the press about Michael selling the casinos, "the Pope this day blessed Michael Corleone," Vincent is telling him how everyone knows he's like the Pope, is preventing Zasa from rising in the Commission, etc.

that’s a fair statement. In his mind he thought he was making the family legit even though that wasn’t the case

Michael wanted to think of himself, and be thought of, as "legitimate"--but on his terms, his definition and that was the case

Both Michael and Kay were delusional about “legitimacy” but he had achieved the semblance of legitimacy and as We see in GFIII more "legitimate" than ever

We saw how people were not treating him as crime boss to his face and going along with his "legitimate" front

He sat with all those business people at Batista's meeting and Roth's birthday party like he was no different, was one of them
Senators were associating with him, Anthony's first Communion party at his home, Superman club and the Presidential palace New Year reception

Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room

Once a common Mafia hood....but Michael had 'successfully' transitioned himself as the “legitimate” Don!
It's never been done before not even Vito would dream that such a thing could be possible

• Batista's meeting

• Roth's birthday party

from memory there was cheering? like they were honoured! to be in Michael's presence and someone patted Michael's shoulder

• Superman club

The government people were fawning over Michael, standing up to shake his hand One of them even addressed Michael Sir

You think too much of Roth kid he is not that clever

[quote=Capri]You think too much of Roth kid he is not that clever[

/quote]. Except Roth was extremely clever

yet dead Roth

Tahoe shooting Fail
two million Fail
Havana killing Fail
perjury Fail
Jew in Israel Fail
Buenos Aries Fail
Panama Fail
retired investor on a pension Fail
US return Fail

Barzini and Roth never met

Vito would see I did business with Roth I respected Roth but I never trusted Roth or his Sicilian messenger boy

This obviously can't be known, but Moe was mentored by Roth and did business with Barzini, and then the book mentions Barzini "had interests" in Cuba. So, very plausible they crossed paths.

Yeah Roth was a bigtime player in that world so I’m sure he had dealings or at least met with Barzini

Maybe so Pete it was just a play on Fredo and Ola never met

It occurred to me there was no mention of Barzini by Roth and Roth was unknown in Godfather
Also Moe tried to to business with Barzini only when the Corlenes came to take over his hotel

"I tolk to Barzini. I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel."

Is the line talk or talked? Seemingly minor difference but (taken at face value) the connotation variance regarding the tightness of the relationship is huge.

According to the transcript I just looked at, it's "talked"

Sure thing Moe Greene tried to “make a deal with him [Barzini] and still keep my [Greene's!] hotel” only when the Corleones came to collect on their IOU for bankrolling the Hotel

It doesn't seem to me Barzini and Greene had a “relationship” prior

Why did “Do you know who I am? I'm Moe Greene!”

• Still have to align himself with Barzini – the incoming Top Don!
• If Greene's mentor “Roth was a bigtime player in that world” why didn't Roth and Greene partner up not dissimilar to Roth's Klingman hotel arrangement
• Roth could have arranged the registered owners, then Roth and Greene themselves, the real owners

Perhaps they did all of the above. Remember: Roth wasn't a character, or even mentioned, in GF. He's strictly a creature of II. But, since we learned in II that Greene was Roth's best friend, it might be logical for Greene to involve Roth in his hotel--and his problems with Michael.

On the other hand, Moe--"headstrong, talking loud, saying styupid things..." --may simply have concluded that he didn't need Roth's help because he underestimated Michael and his father: "First of all, you're all done. The Corleone Family don't even
have that kind of muscle anymore. The Godfather's sick, right? You're getting chased out of
New York by Barzini and the other Families."

There you have it: Moe thinks he knows who's Numero Uno and can make a deal with him.

Why did Greene have to make a deal with another crime boss?

Roth in his soliloquy to Michael in Havana, admitted Roth knew Greene was head-strong, talking loud, saying stupid things yet left Greene to turn up dead

Why didn't Roth intercede in this thing between the Corleones who were considered “all done” and Greene the kid Roth grew up with, loved and trusted who sorta looked up to Roth

Then Someone may not have put a bullet through Greene's eye Thanks! pal

Again, because Roth didn't exist in GF. In Roth's soliloquy in II, Puzo and Coppola were "reverse-engineering" Roth and his relationship with Moe.

BUT, if we project Roth as an unseen presence in GF, we could imagine that Roth didn't try to intervene with Michael because Moe--"headstrong, talking loud, saying styupid things"--had dug his own grave, and intervention by Roth would have been useless--fatal. Also, Roth might even then have been negotiating with Michael for bigger things, so Moe's killing "had nothing to do with business"--the business Roth was negotiating or envisioning with Michael. Also, by muscling Moe, Michael was signaling his intent to be a big player in Nevada--Roth's turf. Roth may have known, even then, that he'd have to kill Michael to stop him from taking over. By "letting it go" (Moe's murder), Roth, ironically, was adopting the Corleone method of appearing weak, the better to lull his enemy and strike when his foe's guard was down.

Vito sick Corleones weak “all done” no muscle
What bigger things, business Roth might even then have been negotiating or envisioning with Michael

Roth doesn't have that kind of muscle

Thank you all for your engagement with “project Roth as an unseen presence in GF” Makes sense that


My only debating point - same as Capri, there won't be nothing left to build on or during, with the deemed weak and defeated Corleones unable to hold New York, let alone Nevada....

. I mean to be fair the Tahoe shooting wasn’t a fail it was more of just extreme luck for Mike. Roth was outsmarting him most of the film but Mike had some luck on his side. He didn’t even know about the Senate lawyer until Fredo told him

Yes, but he was supposed to be savvy, that was who he was. Of course he would get him a bit, he was a real player and would have made sure of it. A real gangster is more concerned with hurting their enemy than with what happens to themself.