In your opinion, what are the benchmarks that a 'street guy' or underworld hoodlum needs to reach in order to be categorized "successful" by normal standards of both the underworld, and underworld in which he navigates?

Weekly earning power"
Accumulated wealth:
Underworld position:
Prior arrest record:
The time he spent behind bars:

So on, and so forth?

Everyone is different of course. Each life is unique unto itself. But as a general guideline, what are the answers to these questions to be marked as "successful" in that lifestyle?

I think when we're talking about an organization like the Mafia, a fraternity that you're sworn into, success isn't only measured by how much money you make or how many crimes you get away with. To me it's how true you are to the code of the streets and the organization you took an oath for. Michael Franzese made millions upon millions, but he bitched out and ratted, though he denies it, and walked away pretending to be this holy moly man of God. Lefty Ruggiero probably didn't make a fraction of what Franzese made, but was always true to the code. I have way more respect for Ruggiero than Franzese, I don't care how much money Franzese made.

In a sense thats true Dilly.

Who is the guy Joey is with in the picture?

IMHO,
The most important quality is absolute loyalty to the Family,and total respect and obedience to your superiors.
Then comes earning power,(and honesty in kicking up).
No cooperation with Law Enforcement.
Efficiently carrying out all assignments.
Keeping a low profile.

Any street guy (made or unmade) who keeps to these guidelines will earn the respect of his peers.

As usual, Lou's "Humble Opinion" is on the money!

Much appreciated F.O.H.

1000%

Now if its reciprocal from your superiors and peers back toward that given members, therein lies the strength of LCN. If they flip-flop on him, or its a one-way street, that starts the crack in their armor

Thats the whole difference between crews who operated efficiently with few killings and snitches over the years, and borgatas that chewed on their own leg and created dissention in the ranks.

The real beauty of us "Small Town" guys - No Bullshit!

Thats very true FOH. Not all small towns or cities. But certainly Pittsburgh was one who ran well. Very smoothly without infighting. They shared (that was the key). Detroit was another smaller city that was similar.

But some other cities like Philly were not so smooth though their history. Or New England for that matter.

So it depended. But definitely Pittsburgh's LaRocca crew was a good example of that IMO.

Not getting caught counts for a lot, I'm just saying. You avoid that and everything in your list pretty much falls into place, whether your connected with someone or freelance.
Second is your street cred, if people know your full of shit, your soft, your gonna fold when the shit hits the fan, you're gonna rip them off, nobody's ever gonna do business with you and you're not gonna last five minutes on any street

There's a lot of guys who supposedly don't get caught because they're confidential informants or rats, to me that doesn't count.

That's an oxymoron, being a C.I. or selling out your partners confidence to avoid jail time IS getting caught, just not doing time. Look at Carlo Gambino, Joe Profaci, the epitome of success in organised crime, what do they have in common, never got caught.

Gambino and Profaci were successful, but today with so many infomants and so much focus on the mafia it would be much tougher, maybe impossible. I think the most successful ones are the ones who stay away from the Mafia, or any group that is a target. These smaller gang busts are shown to be hauling in big money, and individual drug dealers make a ton of money. I am talking people in college or dealing to college students or at clubs. They make a lot of many, never get known by the FBI or Organized Crime Task Forces, and can fade away when they want.

Ummm, that would be me

For me it’s simple….don’t commit crimes in the first place lol

That's why I said supposedly never got caught, I imagine there's a lot of mobsters throughout history who we thought were never caught but went to their graves undercover, unknown snitches.

Yeah yeah yeah, there's always at least one do-gooder preacher in these threads ????

Then they would not be hoodlums. The question is how to be successful as a "hoodlum" not how to live life according to society's and polititians rules. You know, the people who said gambling was evil and run by hoodlums, till they started lotteries, or the ones who put people in prison for pot, but now want it sold to raise money?

Bingo!

Leadership
Chain of Command
Rules
Omertà
The system

Same things as at the beginning as in the end! The enemies blood lol

From the Family's viewpoint: weekly earning power. From the hoodlum's viewpoint: being under The Law's radar.

I'd have to completely agree with you there on both points. #1 is earning power for both himself (and his borgata), and equally important is to have the ability to avoid spending long periods behind bars. Those are the two 'ultimate' goals of any street guy, whether he be a so-called formal "member" of not.

Because at the end of the day no matter how much money you may, or may not, have made during your time in the streets, if you get locked up for decades then IMO opinion (and the opinion of other logical sane people - street guys or not), you lost the wiseguy game. Period!

You can take all your money and stick right up in your ass. Because it ain't gonna do you a bit of good behind bars.

After spending a few decades in stir, go ask any intelligent wiseguy if he would rather keep his money and spend 20, 30, 40 years, or a life bid in the jug. Or if he would have preferred to give up the cash but have hit the streets and be home with his family. 99.9% will tell you that they'd choose the latter option. (because you can always generate more money, but you can't get those precious years back can you?)

Only a mentally ill, greedy sick fuck would choose to lose his freedom (for decades no less), just so he knows he has cash stashed away. Guys may put on a brave face and resign themselves to their fate as many have done. (and kudos to them), but given the choice? Few would stay the course I assure you!

Well I guess I'm a greedy sick fuck, because I would rather keep the cash, but I guess it also depends on how old I'd be coming out. There's no set bar on how much time a wiseguy will get. Plenty these days get single digit prison terms, others get double digits, decades. It all depends on the circumstances and your judge.

Well in reality I think alot has to do with who you know, who has your back, and how likeable you are. Thats why they use the term "connected", how well connected you are to the right people will determine how far you get [ in most cases ]. Look at the guys at the top, most captains are sons or nephews of captains.

Then on the other end we all see guys who did hit after hit, job after job, time in the can, etc for decades and never even got made or just barely got made at the end of their careers. Best career move you could make, if you had no connections in that life, would be to marry the fat daughter of a powerful captain.

There is a lot of truth to what you say ML. (especially about marrying the daughter of a skipper, whether she's skinny or fat). Lol

TO ME (AND TO SAVVY STREET GUYS) TRUE SUCCESS IN THAT LIFE IS DEFINED BY:

1) Earning power and lifestyle; The ability to earn big money, live very well, and accumulate enough wealth for the future so you don't need to work the streets like a common hoodlum.
2) The ability to earn without getting pinched and jailed every few years which completely disrupts life for you and your family. In other words, to stay in the shadows so you don't become notorious and a target of law enforcement.
3) To have enough brains and class to elevate yourself and your family from the streets, and to better your children and grandchildren lives for future generations.
4) To be able to enjoy your senior years without headaches everyday, and to ultimately die in the comfort of your own bed with your shoes off. Not in the gutter with two in the head, or in a damp jail cell.
5) To be remembered by your family, loved ones, and friends, with respect and admiration and loving memories. Not as a callous guy or stone killer who remorselessly hurt people all along the way in life.

THAT IS TRUE SUCCESS!

There were a decent number of fellas in different categories who accomplished most of these goals in their lives. But the few better known NYC bosses who fell into this category in my opinion include the iconic Frank Costello, Carlo Gambino, Jerry Catena, Joe Profaci, Joe Magliocco, and Tommy Lucchese.

There were many others too of course, especially in other cities and small towns who generally operated under the radar. But this was just off the top of my head.

I'd add that controlling greed, living modestly, and having a "legitimate" source of income for tax purposes, are prerequisites for a Mob guy's success in reaching the goals you listed above. Tax evasion has landed more Mob guys in prison than RICO.

Absolutely, positively, Turnbull!

Low key and modest, or be able to show big bucks annually for the tax people (and still stay humble)....and don't get greedy or jealous and look too covet what other guys have. Key!!

. Yeah greed and jealousy for sure. Also pride comes before a fall