Suppose Tessio’s plot to have Michael killed on his way to the Barzini meeting had succeeded. What would have happened to the Corleone Family principals? IMO:

--Neri would be killed at the same time or before Michael. He was loyal to Michael, was his bodyguard, and was of no use to Tessio..
--Clemenza would be an immediate dead man. He was loyal to Michael, hated Barzini, and would never accept an arrangement with Tessio (not that Tessio would have offered him anything—there has never been a co-Donship). Rocco would have to be killed at the same time, or before, Clemenza.
--I think Tess would have asked Tom to stay on in an advisory capacity, certainly not as consigliere. He was the repository of Vito’s and Michael’s political contacts, which Tess and Barzini would need to provide protection for the drugs trade. Tessio was smart enough to see that Tom—lawyer, non-Italian, not in the muscle end of the business—would be useful to him with politicians and judges, as he had been to Vito and Michael. I think Tom would accept. Though he was loyal to Michael, his personal relationship with him was tenuous; he was a pragmatist (willing to convince Sonny to make a deal with Solozzo if Vito died); and, let’s face it, he didn’t have a life outside the Corleones. I also think he knew that if he said no, Tess would have him killed—he knew too much to be on the loose.

Tessio’s the odd man out in this fable. He knew Barzini was stronger than he was—as he said to Vito in the fishtank scene: “Forgive me, Godfather, but with you gone -- me and Pete'll come under Barzini's thumb.” Barzini may have promised him that he’d be autonomous in some way, but I doubt he’d want to make Tessio the new Don Corleone—a rival—especially since he’d betrayed his own Don to get there. Once a traitor, always a traitor. I think Tess would be a dead man sooner or later.

What do you think?

I think that is a good , well thought synopsis..u r the king apparent of would be scenarios by only ur mind Turnbull.

Obviously, Tom would be useful, not just for political purposes but because he knew where Vito's money was. I think that his outlook is grim, though. He's with Luca in the category of people whose lives were saved by Vito. He could shift his loyalty to Michael because that served Vito's wishes, but he wouldn't be able to transfer loyalty to Vito's enemies. He could eventually go Sicilian and try to shoot Sol or Barzini. He'd also be a huge prize for the government to turn, and Barzini would realize that. About the best scenario for him would be that they decide enough blood had been shed, get the information they needed, and then let him go to make a quiet living as a lawyer in some corner of New York State. I think that's a longshot, though.

I had to sign back in when I saw this, kinda been a ghost for a while. My first post and thread here worked on this very subject: http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=31789&Number=812802

My thought there was that for Tessio to truly succeed, he has to have a master plan to take out Barzini as well at the same time as Michael, or Tessio is getting whacked by Barzini after he's done the dirty work of getting rid of Neri, Clemenza, Rocco and possibly some others in the old Corleone guard. That's all assuming that any one of those three don't put the pieces together for themselves and take out Tessio first. No easy task to set for himself there.

The scenario I had envisioned was for Michael to ride with Tessio to the 'meet' and along the way, they pass through a certain toll booth. The car gets gunned, 'shades of Sonny' style and Tessio manages to 'survive the attack', but wasn't able to save Michael. Hence why Michael coming in a different car 'screws up all his arrangements'. Tom was presumably going with them since he stated that he couldn't go with him in the novel and movie, so I tend to think Tessio may have been planning to take Tom out as well. On the heels of that, Tessio marshals the Corleone resources and uses the killing of Michael as a reason to launch an attack on Barzini. Barzini would be presumably waiting at the 'meet', and so would be a sitting duck for Tessio's attack. If Tessio succeeds in taking out Michael and Barzini without drawing suspicion to his own hand in it, he can take over the Corleone and Barzini holdings in one master stroke. That also gives him a good possibility of being able to secure the loyalty of Neri, Clemenza and Rocco as well (or at least, not have them out to get him).

Tom, like Michael, knew that whoever approached Michael with a peace deal had turned traitor, and Tessio would've had to take him out, lest he blow the whistle on it all.

Thanks for resurrecting your excellent and well-written thread, jrp. And thanks for the kudo, hoodlum. The reason I like creating these what-if scenarios and asking for your thoughts is that, since they're all hypothetical, no answer can be wrong--everyone's input is valid.

I briefly considered an alternate scenario: What if Barzini knew nothing of Tessio's plot to kill Michael? What if Tess kissing Barz's ring at Vito's burial was just a little exchange of pleasantries designed to make Michael believe that Barz "wanted to talk"--the better to convince Michael and his entourage to leave the safety of the Mall and go to Tess's territory, to be killed by him? But, I rejected it because Tess had acknowledged that Barz was stronger than he. And, since Barzini had been chiseling Tessio's territory, Barz would interpret Tessio's coup d'etat against Michael as preparation to take the territories back by force. Barz would prepare for war--and since Tess's top priority after killing Michael would be to consolidate the remaining Corleones behind his leadership, the last thing he'd need would be a war with Barzini.

Thank you for the compliment, Turnbull.

In some ways, I think your rejected theory ties in with mine. True, Tessio doesn't need a war with Barzini, and I think if Barzini is allowed to know that Tessio whacked Michael, it puts Barzini on high alert. Tessio can't win in that situation at all if Barzini lives. Tessio either gets hit by Barzini outright, or one of the three key leaders in the Corleones gets him. Tessio needs a patsy to lay Michael's death on, and Barzini is perfect for that.

IMHO, I smell a classic double-cross.Barzini uses Tessio to lure Mike to his death,then also whacks Sal for good measure.Barzini is an old school, cunning, ruthless Don who would never trust a man who betrayed his boss.

Barzini's whole motivation is to destroy the Corleone Family,first by chiseling into their various rackets in New York,then by attempting a Vegas takeover through Moe Green,not to mention basically taking the lion's share of the Narcotics trade.

Barzini has no need for Tessio at all. Hagen would have no connection to the Family anymore except maybe making sure that Connie is taken care of. He can easily transition to legitimate business and retire safe and rich.

Barzini, by this time has had about 5 years in the Drug business,so I'm sure he has built up enough political contacts and protection on his own,so no need to involve Hagen.

Neri and Rocco would not be a threat. Since there is no Corleone Family any more,what would be their motivation ? Revenge ? Barzini' would see it coming a mile away and they wouldn't get near him.Same with Clemenza. He would be out of a job unless he could put together a little side racket. Bottom line is there would be no sense fighting to regain the Family business since the Family business would have died with Michael. Just my two cents worth.

If “Tessio’s plot to have Michael killed on his way to the Barzini meeting had succeeded” Sure thing Michael, Neri, Rocco, Clemenza all end up dead

Wonder what happens to Fredo?

• Tom

Tom was going to the Tessio brokered 'meeting' with Barzini as well So I think Tom would be killed then and there too, having witnessed Michael and Neri's murders

However if Tom was spared for the time being....

I believe Tom's loyalty to the Corleones is beyond reproach irrespective of “his personal relationship with him [Michael] was tenuous;” because of what Vito and Sonny had done for Tom but no choice Tom would have to accept the “advisory capacity” job if offered
Tom's brains or his signature

Tom is a dead man either way - Yes or No - It is just a matter of time as Tom would be too much of a risk “to be on the loose”

Tom would be on borrowed time and will be killed as soon as the Judges and Politicians are in Barzini's pocket
Though I believe Barzini can still get the Judges and Politicians, without Tom's help Money talks! but I acknowledge it is easier armed with the 'corrupt' list

• Tessio

Actually I think Tessio could be dead too Neri hopefully! would take Tessio out before dying
If not, Barzini would – Tessio “dead man sooner or later”

Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family Yeah, right!

A side question please, did Tessio know Barzini would not be at the meeting?
The last we see of Barzini [smug he was going to be the Numero Uno Don shortly] he was tumbling down the steps

Hell! both Barzini and Michael screwed up all Tessio's arrangements!
If Tessio thought he will make history, killing the Dons and then Capo Tessio fast-tracking to Top Mafia Don, in one sweep
History! It's never been done before not even Vito would dream that such a thing could be possible

Tessio should have had more faith in his Don He “failed and paid the price”

Wonder what happens to Fredo? and Anthony

Lana, I agree with you about Tom. At best, he's on borrowed time, but since Tom advised Tessio that he couldn't come either, that tells me that he was due to take the fateful ride with Michael that day. Tessio planned to take out Tom as well, and for good reason: like you said, Tom's loyalty to the Corleones was absolute, and Tessio would believe that there's no way to flip Tom. Additionally, he may or may not have relished the idea of a non Sicilian in such a high position in what would soon be his Family,

In my alternate scenario, Tessio would have had a meet arranged with both Michael and Barzini, with each believing the other requested it. In the movie and book, it's questionable as to whether there was an actual meet scheduled; if there was, I don't think Tessio let Barzini in on it being a setup to whack Michael (and Barzini himself, if my theory holds water). If Barzini did know it was a setup and Michael found Tessio out as a traitor, surely Barzini wouldn't be running around out in the open for Neri to take him out on the steps like that.

As for Fredo and Anthony, I don't think they're of concern to Barzini or Tessio. Anthony is just a kid (doing anything to him would be infamita) and Fredo is out west at the time in Vegas; neither would be a threat to Barzini or Tessio.

OMG Capri, I totally forgot about Fredo. Thanks for the reminder. I forgot that he was still alive. Goes to show how overlooked he was. Unfortunately I think he goes the way of the rest,sink or swim on his own.
As far as Anthony, I would assume that Kay would have gone with her initial plan to get custody of the kids,find a decent man,remarry,and live a peaceful life.I'm sure that if asked,Tom would have aided her financially at first,but whether or not she would reach out is pure conjecture.

If Tessio knew Barzini would not be at the meeting then no show Barzini knew Michael and his people Tom, Neri were all going to be massacred that Tessio was doing his dirty work for him

Barzini could have had his people take Tessio out then and there unless he may have thought he could be of help in rounding up the Corleone clan and their operations before whacking him
He is the only one left standing Who is going to challenge him?

Greene had already made a deal with Barzini to keep the Hotel I reckon they will also offload Fredo Why let him keep banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

Little boy Anthony when he is a man he'll come for revenge

I reckon Corleones totally annihilated including Fredo and Anthony

Sure thing jrp316 I don't think “Tom going to the Tessio brokered 'meeting' with Barzini” is in dispute

We know! “there was [no] actual meet scheduled;” At Vito's funeral -
Tessio tells Michael “Barzini wants to arrange a meeting He says we can straighten any of our problems out”

Then after Michael agrees, Tessio goes to Barzini and presumably tells Barzini It's a deal!
Both Barzini and Tessio clasp hands sealing! their current and future friendship

I do believe “Barzini did know [or suspected] it was a set up”
that's why Barzini was a no show Perhaps Barzini figured he was not safe either in Tessio's territory

Barzini - was running around out in the open, on the steps like that - because Barzini thought Neri [along with Michael and Tom] was being whacked by Tessio

Barzini was “smug he was going to be the Numero Uno Don shortly” and was already acting like the top Mafia Don, feeling invulnerable

Side questions, whether
1. Tessio knew? that Barzini knew [or suspected] it was a set-up
2. Tessio knew? that Barzini would be a no show [we'd never find out because at the end everybody was a no show!]
3. Tessio obviously thought Michael didn't suspect it was a set-up

I think every surviving member of any slain Mafia family “would be a threat” and “of concern” even Little boys Just ask! Don Ciccio and 'Civilians' Just ask! Sollozzo and McCluskey

Tessio/Barzini meeting Michael was the only one who strategiced - Sollozzo killing Vito is the key, the Corleones can't wait - devised the brilliant plan and carried out successfully the murders of Sollozzo and the New York Police captain pretty much single handed

Michael did all that in spite of Tom's “nobody has ever gunned down a New York police captain Never!”

If that was not proof for Tessio that Michael was “more than qualified to be the new don” confront Barzini, stop Barzini encroaching into Corleone territories and win

Well, Don Barzini and Don Tessio! both were slipping that Michael would fall for this transparently ill-conceived charade

4. no negotiators arranged until they come back safe and sound


I reckon Barzini knew it was a set-up but not sure whether Tessio knew? that Barzini knew that Barzini would be a no show

He figured he was not safe either in Tessio's territory “there was [no] actual meet scheduled;” there was every chance Tessio could offload him as well

Where were Tessio's men when he was bundled into the car for his last ride

That's a detail FFC no doubt didn't want to deal with. But...

Since Tessio's plan was regicide--killing the Don--secrecy would be the top priority. It'd be in his interest not to tell anyone else about it except the would-be assassins. And, to assure secrecy, they probably wouldn't have been from among Tessio's ranks. He would have recruited outside assassins. This is routine Mafia practice when Dons are whacked. The Gallo brothers, who were with the Profaci Family, killed Albert Anastasia in 1957. Jerome Johnson, not even an associate of any Mafia family, shot and fatally wounded Joe Colombo in 1971. Charlie Luciano used Meyer Lansky to recruit shooters to whack Joe Masseria and Salvatore Maranzano in 1931.

Looks like they were hired out of Tahoe, I don't recognize them

hard to figure whether Tessio knew?
1 Barzini knew [or suspected] it was a set-up
2 Barzini would be a no show

So, what's your answer gonna be, Turnbull?

I think Tessio did conspire with Barzini before deciding to whack Michael. As I said earlier: Tess knew Barzini was stronger than he was: "Forgive me, Godfather, but with you gone, me and Pete will come under Barzini's thumb." Bringing Barzini in would give Tessio some leverage.

"No show" doesn't apply to Barzini in the above scenario. If Tess told Barzini he'd kill Michael, why would Barzini need to be there? The farther away, the better for Barzini since neither he nor Tess would want it to be known that Barzini was connected to Michael's murder

So there was no master plan to take out Barzini as well at the same time as Michael?


Good points Turnbull No doubt secrecy would be the top priority and the outside assassins will be waiting in Brooklyn but wouldn't he have some men from his own ranks, accompany him to the [no] actual meet scheduled;” keeping up the charade

No. Since Tessio told Michael he'd be "safe" because the meeting would be held in his territory, there'd be no need for muscle. Remember this key moment: Tess and Tom are about to get into Tess's car when Cicci comes out and says, "Sal -- Tom -- the Boss says he'll come in a separate car. He says for you two to go on ahead..." Tess replies, "Hell, he can't do that -- it screws up all my arrangements!" Tessio thought he'd lulled Michael into thinking the meeting would be so safe (because Tess arranged it) that Michael would drop all of his defenses. Oh, Tessio--you stunad!

What is even more surprising TB is that it was (according to the novel) Tessio who detected in Michael a force cleverly kept hidden, a man jelously guarding his true strength from public gaze.

Che stupido!

Yes indeed, Oli. Shows once again why Vito was right when he said, "Women and children can afford to be careless, but not men." Tessio, since he was "always smarter," should have seen in Michael what he'd seen for so many decades in Vito: feigning weakness to relax enemies and then strike at the right time.

You are good Thanks

So since stunad! Tessio thought he'd lulled Michael into thinking the Tess arranged meeting would be so safe, plan was to ambush Michael on their way to Brooklyn

The outside assassins massacre Michael, Neri and Tom then disappear without a trace Tessio is the only one who survives Difficult not impossible!

Who would be deemed responsible for the massacre?

Tricky explaining! how Tessio, the sole survivor, was miraculously spared

Whilst we know! Tessio is a “dead man sooner or later” - wouldn't it become known that Barzini was somehow “connected to Michael's murder” that “Tessio did conspire with Barzini to whack Michael”

Seems far-fetched....however I suppose who is left in the Corleone family to hold Barzini &/or Tessio accountable even if Clemenza and Rocco were not killed simultaneously Big ask indeed

Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family

Oh, Tessio—you [even bigger] stunad!

Dog's breakfast!

Was Tessio reaching for his gun before Cicci took it away

I believe he was. At this point,he knows what's going to happen and figures he's got nothing to lose by trying. Given the number of guys surrounding him I don't see him trying to take them all on, but rather grabbing one of them as a hostage (the best choice would be Tom) and trying to make it out of the compound alive. Needless to say, he would still be a dead man, but desperate as he was, I guess he figured that it would be better to try something,anything, as opposed to just taking a couple behind the ear without a fight.

I think if Tessio would have succeeded and moved up the ranks. He would have cracked under all the pressures of being at the top. He would have eventually turned states evidence and been rewarded with a job as a detective on the NYPD. Finally he would have transgendered and gone in the witness protection program. [Apologies in advance. I just couldn't resist. Abe was my favorite character on Barney Miller]

I think another contributing factor for Tessio's betrayal, could have been wasn't Tessio more of an 'independent' operator than Clemenza
Tessio didn't think much of Michael “Mike, you are wrong” and Tessio may have felt slighted that with Vito gone, Tessio will come under Michael's [the inexperienced boss' kid] thumb

Success! Whilst I acknowledge Clemenza had personal relationship with the Corleones as well unlike Tessio - Both Clemenza and Tessio were disgruntled after the fish tank scene

A side question please, what if Clemenza and Tessio teamed up and conspired together

The novel says that Vito kept Clemenza on a short leash, but treated Tessio with more independence. Tess didn't live at the Mall. Vito tacitly encouraged his foes to think that Tess was an independent operator, the better to hide Vito's full strength from them.



They would not have conspired together because doing so would mean splitting up the Corleone Family. Neither, especially Tess, would have gone for that--it's all or nothing in the Mafia. Also, splitting the Family would gravely weaken both sides.

Clemenza: [fish tank scene] “Don Corleone you once said that the day would come when Tessio and me could form our own Family”
It seems to me the above was the carrot Vito has been dangling and both Clemenza and Tessio seemingly were receptive of the said arrangement / reward

Clemenza and Tessio already had their own territories They could have continued to run their respective Families [like a Corleone!] without Michael on their backs

Michael can still draw the water from their well for muscle and they can certainly present a bill for such services
After all Michael is not a Communist!