I wish the GF movie would have fleshed out why Neri was so loyal to Michael...

What I don't get is how Michael and somewhat the great Don himself - Vito basically left Fredo behind and almost letting him know that he is worthless... Maybe not Vito but certainly Michael did by having him be some personal driver. At least Mike revealed to him in II who his enemy was.

Why didn't Vito set him up with a more important role? Maybe let him take part in the legitimate business in the olive oil company after Genco passed and even have him eventually fully incharge of the egit businesses. We don't even get to know enough about him in the first film to label him a moron as most seem to. Just because you're not cut out for the life and happen to drop a handgun on the ground on the first day driving the Don after work as bullets quite nearly striking yourself doesn't make you an idiot lol. Fredo was young still and can't have been a hopeless case.

Vito and Michael, leaders of the most powerful crime organisation but couldn't figure out or bother enough with the consequences to follow.

Michael always taken care of him

True Gudfadern Vito basically left Fredo behind and almost letting him know that he is worthless...having him be some personal driver.
1. Don for Sonny
2. Senator, Governor for Michael
3. And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --

In fairness, Fredo was given an opportunity in the legitimate casino business by Sonny and later Michael but he was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! instead of learning the business

He may have been perceived as good-hearted, weak and stupid until his kid brother surpassed him

I too reckon he was not a moron nor idiot and no doubt dangerous and deadly because of his jealousy and resentment of his kid brother, Don Michael and I reckon knew he was setting him up to be murdered for the Donship

The Manager said “Freddie, good to see ya” like he hadn't seen Fredo for awhile when Fredo came over after the Geary set up

Was Fredo continuing his old tricks! leaving the Manager to run the casinos / hotels

Our ongoing re-vamp, re-visit 'revolving door'! [what's new?!] takes

I now believe any role how important, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst
Vito and Michael [who did?] didn't anticipate the consequences even after Fredo taking sides against the Family in Vegas with Greene
However in fairness, Fredo setting his own blood kid brother Michael up to be murdered for the Donship – nobody could have seen that coming indeed

Tom and Fredo

I made a slight error in my post about Michael letting Fredo be a personal driver - they both did, but you figured it out either way Evita. Fredo started out driving his father around, years later on still driving people around picking people up from the airport under his kid brother.

No Vito and Michael wouldn't have anticipated that Fredo one day were to have Michael set up to be killed, but certainly should have realized that Freddy would grow recentful, whether or not it would have a significance to the future of the family.
But yes Lana, that Donship probably was the only trophy that would have sufficed to Fredo.

Vito letting Fredo be a personal driver - this one time when Paulie sick

It occurred to me....Fredo “identifying” and siding with Greene because Greene said he did the Corleones a favour and took Fredo in when the Corleones were having a bad time

After all that Greene had done for the family and Fredo, Michael is now pushing Fredo's good friend Greene out

No wonder Fredo was so upset

a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man – Vito take note!

Vegas and forgotten

If Michael had been killed in the car bomb, what would have happened to the Corleone son as their father’s successor

Fredo gets his chance! to show everyone that

Conundrum but as long as Corleone blood son, Sonny was to have been Don So I reckon same with Fredo

He was always the nice guy, left all the dilemma for Michael
1. stepping over Fredo
2. Baptism murders
3. making his daughter a widow
4. legitimacy burden

With Michael and Sonny both dead,and assuming that Don Corleone is wanting to retire,and hand over the reins of the Family, then Vito's options are limited.
No way,no how is Fredo going to be in charge,even as a token "front Boss".

That leaves Clemenza, Tessio, Neri,and Rocco.

Hagen, being German-Irish is totally out of the picture,but the smart move would be to keep him as the Corleone lawyer/advisor.

Neither Rocco or Neri have the experience,history with the Family,or enough respect from the other Families to be Boss,so that leaves Clem and Tess.

IMHO,Tessio has the experience,loyalty,and proven track record,as well as the ruthless streak that it would take to run things.

So Fredo still winds up getting stepped over,and maybe would have set Tess up,like he did Mike.

No matter the outcome,the thing to remember is that Barzini will be the biggest threat to the Corleone's so all decisions by Vito will be made with that in mind.

So here's my line up:

Tessio- Acting Boss until Vito's retirement or death,then Official Boss
Clemenza- Underboss
Rocco- Capo
Neri- Capo
Fredo- Capo,but limited to rackets and soldiers given to him by Vito
Hagen- legal advisor / couuselor.

Clem also has the experience,loyalty,and proven track record,as well as the ruthless streak that it would take to run things
can't see him underboss to Tess

Sonny still bad Don maybe Fredo token "front Boss" under Vito and Tom

I agree that Clem would also be a good fit as Boss. Both him and Tess go back to the beginning with Vito,and of course,Clem got Vito involved in his first illegal activity (the rug caper).
As far as Underboss, I actually don't think that either one of them would be content in that position under the other one,so there may be some interesting dynamics involved.
On the Fredo matter,I still have to believe that he would be the worst pick,even if it was only as a "front Boss".

Good scenarios Lou I agree, I also can't see him Underboss to Tess or vice versa

I reckon he wouldn't retire from a weak and defeated position as former Top Don

No doubt he would be the worst pick, even if it was only as a "front Boss" however knowing Santino was a bad Don, he still would have become The Don if he hadn't been killed Go figure!

We'd been debating some interesting dynamics, in Vito's vs Michael's caporegime thread, Clem and Tess' roles if there was no direct Corleone involvement

I think the big difference between Sonny and Fredo as far as being Don,is that Sonny turned out to be a bad pick in hindsight because of his temper and the emotionally driven decisions he made after taking the reins, but before that,he had the makings to be successful,and was a good choice.
Fredo,on the other hand,was already out of the running,because he was never seen as anything but weak and stupid.
Sonny had the potential to run the Fanily right,whereas Fredo had nothing from the get-go.

My take as well Evita “he [Vito] wouldn't retire from a weak and defeated position as former Top Don”
Note: Lou's was an assumption
I believe, it would have been of utmost importance - Vito's [Corleones] need, pride to re-establish the Corleones glory, standing, reputation etc. and to make the Corleones top Mafia family again

Fredo in charge, even as a token "front Boss" under the watchful eye of Tom and Vito
It could work....Fredo knows to keep his mouth shut! unlike Sonny

there's not gonna be no trouble from Fredo as long as Vito is alive Then send Fredo fishing with Neri!

Ironically I believe, Fredo would have had no problem as “Capo,but limited to rackets and soldiers" or taking care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere!

It was the stepped over for his kid brother that got Fredo mad and all fired up....

Had Michael been killed in Sicily, Vito, weakened by the shooting and devastated by the loss of two sons, still would have had Tess and Clem's loyalties, as well as their formidable regimes. He also would have retained his even more formidable police/political contacts, which the other families needed:
--He would have called the Commission meeting to halt the war.
--He would have agreed to provide political protection for drug trafficking in the East.
--In return, he would have asked for a formal peace, and a return to the pre-war status quo, meaning that he had gambling and unions, Tattaglia had nightclubs and brothels, etc.
--The other Dons would have agreed, since they were getting what they wanted all along. They wouldn't have needed to move against Vito immediately because it'd just rekindle a costly war that they had already won..

I think the other Dons had underestimated Michael as a possible existential threat to them as Don-in-training, which is why they agreed not to interfere with his return to the US. . They would think even less of Fredo. To them, Vito was a beaten man, but they needed his police/political protection. That would give Vito time to think, to plan, to remain the head of the family for several years, as we saw.. He might have attempted to tutor Fredo, in the hope that Fredo would rise to the occasion. More likely, he wouldn't want to expose Fredo to the same dangers that had cost Sonny and Michael their lives. As he approached his death, and with Barzini chiseling Corleone territories, I believe he would have counseled Tess and Clem to make their peace with Barzini and go with him, since he would be gone and Fredo couldn't lead them. They might not go for it, but that would be their problem.
.

Turnbull, I agree with all that you say about what would have taken place if Michael had been killed in Italy. But I also believe that some how, in some way, Don Vito would have avenged the killing of Michael and that both Barzini & Tattaglia would have been taken out.

DC, how great to see you again!

At that stage of the game,Vito knew he wasn't going to be around long,and Fredo was useless as far as keeping the Family active.
I agree with Turnbull that the best move was to let Clem and Tess go,either under Barzini or,on, a smaller scale,on their own.
At this point,Vito taking out Barz and Tatt would only serve to kindle a major war that the Corleones could never win,plus it would disrupt Vito's plans to gradually get out of the crime "business" and retire peacefully.
Vito had neither the incentive or firepower to kick the sleeping bears.

He may have had the firepower of Tess and Clem's loyalties, as well as their formidable regimes but I reckon probably not the stomach, weakened by the shooting and devastated by the loss of two sons

However if Barz and Tatt are taken out, I reckon they could win because what can small potatoes Cuneo and Stracci do?

Tess and Clem hate that goddamn Barzini! can't see them operating under Barzini's thumb
He also would have been suspicious it was a plot by Vito (a la Luca/Tattaglia) to suss out Barz's intentions

Again as we debated, in Vito's vs Michael's caporegime thread, They were already separate and independent of each other with their own separate territories and now become Don Clemenza and Don Tessio with their own separate Family

And the Corleone name lives on

I was playing comedy! with “so sweet and helpless” Fredo....

Vito's Rise and Rise
Maybe of interest

Fredo moments! in Havana

• Fredo and the Hotel porter

Fredo wrestling! the briefcase [That two million -- ] from the hotel porter

• $2 million

Fredo says out loud what was in the briefcase.... then whoop!

• Fredo's first lie

• Fredo's superman excitement

Fredo so taken up with Superman's....! [Cazale's superb acting – Fredo's face wow!]

ominous sign like the oranges, squeaking train and now the sirens, foreshadowing their deaths

John Cazale died in 1978 aged only 42 of cancer
I think he was in only five films all of which were acclaimed and won several awards though sadly he was not personally nominated, in spite of his stellar performances

Michael pressed his palm, dragged it down the misted glass then his thumb and index finger over his eyebrows, pained at having to have this distressing conversation

He was listening intently looking for ways out that Roth misled him -- and he didn't know they were planing to kill him until something in it for me -- on my own.

Then grief as the full realization of Fredo's betrayal hits him and the subtle nod at the stepped over! tirade and why he did what he did

Cazale has a unique distinction in the history of Motion Pictures.
Every movie he appeared in was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture.
They were :The Godfather, The Conversation, The Godfather Part II, Dog Day Afternoon, and The Deer Hunter,
He also lived with Meryl Streep for the last two years of his life until his death from lung cancer.
She was 27,and he was 41 when they met.
He was well respected by his peers,and in fact,when he was initially turned down for the Deer Hunter due to being uninsurable because of his health,DeNiro assumed the financial responsibility,because he wanted Cazale to be in it.

Sure thing Lou Cazale was superb indeed

I remember reading somewhere that Coppola wrote a bigger part for Cazale in the second Godfather after seeing Cazale's superb performance in the first in spite of not a lot of screen time

The Godfather at 50
The New York Times by Dave Itzkoff March 9, 2022

• Al Pacino on ‘The Godfather’: ‘It’s Taken Me a Lifetime to Accept It and Move On’

Who from the movie doesn’t get enough credit for their contribution?