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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime
[Re: mustachepete]
#1037721
07/25/22 02:16 AM
07/25/22 02:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Tessio indirectly betrayed deceased Vito by directly betraying the living Michael?
T You could say that. Tess disobeyed Vito's command (in the fishtank scene) to "be a friend to Michael." But, he waited until after Vito died to make his deal with Barzini.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Turnbull]
#1037796
07/27/22 12:05 AM
07/27/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379
Australia
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Tessio indirectly betrayed deceased Vito by directly betraying the living Michael?
You could say that. Tess disobeyed Vito's command (in the fishtank scene) to "be a friend to Michael." But, he waited until after Vito died to make his deal with Barzini Don't know Turnbull I reckon he went straight to Barzini from the fishtank scene and made his deal before Vito died I too believe Tessio had made his deal with Barzini when Vito was alive Barzini and Michael's meeting to straighten any of their problems out! was already arranged before Vito's funeral
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Trojan]
#1037797
07/27/22 12:05 AM
07/27/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379
Australia
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Breaking the peace?Extract: The novel clearly states that Michael was planning to go ahead with The Great Massacre while Vito was alive--even telling Vito that he must have no part in it, and that Michael would leave the family and go his own way if Vito tried to interfere. Perhaps he meant by that to protect Vito's personal integrity--i.e., Vito didn't break the peace, Michael did, not that it would matter to anyone but Vito. Luckily we were spared this ridiculous "moral" distinction by circumstance: Vito died and Barzini, with Tessio, planned to whack Michael. So, it was kill or be killed What is our take if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did? If Michael would have still gone ahead with the Great massacre, Tessio-Barzini deal / Barzini-Michael meeting becomes moot and Tessio is off the hook.... Vito was expecting Barzini-Michael meeting to take place regardless of whether Vito was alive or not? Vito to Michael: Garden scene Now listen -- whoever comes to you with this Barzini meeting -- he's the traitor Don't forget that
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1037799
07/27/22 02:28 AM
07/27/22 02:28 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Tessio indirectly betrayed deceased Vito by directly betraying the living Michael?
You could say that. Tess disobeyed Vito's command (in the fishtank scene) to "be a friend to Michael." But, he waited until after Vito died to make his deal with Barzini Don't know Turnbull I reckon he went straight to Barzini from the fishtank scene and made his deal before Vito died I too believe Tessio had made his deal with Barzini when Vito was alive Barzini and Michael's meeting to straighten any of their problems out! was already arranged before Vito's funeral Tess may have decided at the fishtank scene that he would go against Michael because he thought Michael was soft on Barzini. BUT: Barzini didn't make his move against Vito--he waited until after Vito died. I think Tess probably contacted Barzini right after Vito died, and cemented his plan (a meeting with Barxini where Michael would be "safe") at the burial.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1037800
07/27/22 02:35 AM
07/27/22 02:35 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Vito was expecting Barzini-Michael meeting to take place regardless of whether Vito was alive or not? Vito to MicIhael: Garden scene Now listen -- whoever comes to you with this Barzini meeting -- he's the traitor Don't forget that Certainly Vito was expecting Barzini to move against Michael, but not him (Vito). Barzini figured Michael was weak, and would be weaker without Vito's guidance and counsel. That's why he waited until Vito died before he made his move--and why I believe Tess didn't approach Barzini right after the fishtank scene (see above).
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Trojan]
#1037839
07/27/22 11:28 PM
07/27/22 11:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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Are you saying Tessio-Barzini deal / Barzini-Michael meeting were all arranged and cemented only between Vito's death and funeral
I'm surmising that Tessio had made up his mind not to go with Michael after the fishtank scene. I don't believe he would have approached Barzini with a plan until Vito died. Tess may have had scruples about loyalty to Vito. He may have hoped that Vito might still take his side and influence Michael. Or, more likely, Tessio, "always smarter," would have seen that it would be dangerous to approach Barzini before Vito died--what if Barz thought it was a plot by Vito (a la Luca/Tattaglia) to suss out Barz's intentions? An approach after Vito died, with "weak" Michael in charge, would be less suspicious. Barzini didn't wait until Vito died before He moved against him when he was alive 1. sanctioning killing him 2. killing Sonny 3. car bomb attempt on Michael 4. chiseling Tessio's territories 5. backing Moe Greene 1,2 and 3 all happened before the Commission meeting and the peace agreement. 4 was not covered by the peace agreement. Nor was 5, if it was even true that Moe "talked to Barzini."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Turnbull]
#1037843
07/28/22 12:05 AM
07/28/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379
Australia
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Vito was expecting Barzini-Michael meeting to take place regardless of whether Vito was alive or not? Vito to Michael: Garden scene Now listen -- whoever comes to you with this Barzini meeting -- he's the traitor Don't forget that Certainly Vito was expecting Barzini to move against Michael, but not him (Vito). Barzini figured Michael was weak, and would be weaker without Vito's guidance and counsel. That's why he waited until Vito died before he made his move--and why I believe Tess didn't approach Barzini right after the fishtank scene (see above). Therein lies the issue? Any move against Michael after their "Commission meeting and the peace agreement" is a move against Vito unless Barzini "waited until Vito died before he made his move--" However neither Tessio nor Barzini could have 'known' when Vito will die even with "The Godfather's sick, right"? I don't want anything to happen to him [Michael] while his father's alive!
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1037868
07/28/22 03:49 PM
07/28/22 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 343 North America
Mr. Blonde
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 343
North America
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What is our take if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did? This is a fascinating question and I don't know if it has been fully answered. As Turnbull noted, the blatant acts of hostility occurred before the Commission Meeting. The acts that occurred after were not direct violations of the peace agreement. So what would have happened if Vito had held on for another 10 years? His death was not seen as imminent, so for all anyone knew, that was a realistic possibility.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Mr. Blonde]
#1037869
07/28/22 04:01 PM
07/28/22 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 343 North America
Mr. Blonde
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 343
North America
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What is our take if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did? This is a fascinating question and I don't know if it has been fully answered. As Turnbull noted, the blatant acts of hostility occurred before the Commission Meeting. The acts that occurred after were not direct violations of the peace agreement. So what would have happened if Vito had held on for another 10 years? His death was not seen as imminent, so for all anyone knew, that was a realistic possibility. I could see Barzini continuing to chisel away at Corleone territories and assets in such a way that is not an outright violation of the agreement, but would try to get the Corleones to retaliate in a way that is a breach. Then all other families would join Barzini in outright war. Of course, if I could see Barzini's gameplan, then Vito and Michael would too, but what could they do to stop or counter it?
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Mr. Blonde]
#1037936
07/30/22 12:03 AM
07/30/22 12:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379
Australia
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They can win! Clemenza and Tessio's crew were full strength, Rocco's secret regime even if it was not up to the desired level at that time, it is still extra, in addition to their existing muscle I believe there is a lot the Corleones can do to "stop or counter" and win the Gangland war against even combined Barzini and all the other families - Barzini outed himself as the puppeteer in this Sollozzo business and Sonny's murder, at their Commission meeting – not a smart move!
- Cuneo and Strachi small potatoes
Obviously the “outright war” throws a spanner in the works regarding the Baptism massacre because the surprise element is lost and the Corleones' acting weak / weaker cover is blown I might add, I can't see the Corleones asking the Molinari Family [or any other friends] for help The Corleone pride, like they can't fight their own battles / war
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Mr. Blonde]
#1037940
07/30/22 05:34 AM
07/30/22 05:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 565
Capri
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 565
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What is our take if Vito hadn't died when he 'conveniently'! did? This is a fascinating question and I don't know if it has been fully answered. As Turnbull noted, the blatant acts of hostility occurred before the Commission Meeting. The acts that occurred after were not direct violations of the peace agreement. So what would have happened if Vito had held on for another 10 years? His death was not seen as imminent, so for all anyone knew, that was a realistic possibility. What's our answer gonna be? I don't want anything to happen to him [Michael] while his father's alive! 
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Trojan]
#1037946
07/30/22 12:28 PM
07/30/22 12:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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The timing of Vito's death was convenient to the script. But, I'm guessing that Barzini would have continued to wait until Vito died to move against Michael. I think he underestimated Michael, and believed that Vito was still in charge--the power behind the throne--and he didn't underestimate Vito. He may also have been mindful of Vito's threat at the Commission meeting that if anything happened to Michael, "that, I could never forgive." (Yes, that threat applied to interference with Michael's return to America, but Barzini might have feared Vito's revenge for any lethal move against Michael). I also infer that Barzini didn't have to rush to kill Michael because he seemed to be doing just fine, chipping away at Corleone territories just short of provoking retaliation. In his mind, he could afford to wait until Vito died, and "weak" Michael was deprived of Vito's council.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito's vs Michael's caporegime & crew
[Re: Turnbull]
#1037978
07/31/22 12:15 AM
07/31/22 12:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,379
Australia
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Sure thing Turnbull whilst “Vito's death was convenient to the script” Barzini can't afford “to wait until Vito died [not knowing when?!] to move against Michael” giving precious time to the Corleones to rebuild eg: Rocco's secret regime and get ready for battle Gotta get Michael or Vito? That's the key for Barzini but Barzini was "chipping away at Corleone territories" small potatoes It was pretty much common knowledge that - Fish tank scene [private] Vito: Well, Michael is now head of the Family Moe Greene meeting [public] Tom: the Don is semi-retired and Mike is in charge of the Family business now The longer Barzini waited as Tattaglia said at the Commission meeting “as time goes by and his [Vito's] position becomes stronger.... Barzini and Tessio were slippin' and certainly underestimated Michael indeed - “weak” civilian Michael, killed Sollozzo and McCluskey single handed when “nobody has ever gunned down a New York police captain Never”! As you always say [or similar] Trilogy theme – underestimating / overestimating Their Achilles heel
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