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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039718
09/04/22 08:06 AM
09/04/22 08:06 AM
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Capri
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Had things turned differently,I think Mike would have settled down with Kay, raised a family,and pursued a very successful career in business,(perhaps Wall Street),or even in politics.
According to some articles I've seen,Mike expressed an interest in politics,even in childhood,and,wondered if there would ever be an Italian President. what articles  The Godfather Wiki Fan Page is one. not in novel or movie He was dismissive another pezzonovante
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039719
09/04/22 08:31 AM
09/04/22 08:31 AM
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mustachepete
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why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did
I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family. What was he concealing about Kay? He brought her to the wedding and dragged her into the family photo. That he was going to marry Kay and "cut close ties with his family."
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039756
09/04/22 07:01 PM
09/04/22 07:01 PM
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Trojan
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All this begs a question: Was Michael a natural-born criminal? "A man has but one destiny," Vito said in the novel (about Sonny). Was Michael destined to lead a life of crime?
I've argued many times that Michael had choices at each and every crossroads in his life. He chose the criminal path every time. The shooting of his father impelled him to start on his life of crime by killing Mac and Sol. It did not compel him to kill them. He was not "forced" to protect Vito by killing them.
If Vito hadn't been shot, if the peaceful status quo prevailed, Vito lived a long life, and Sonny lived to succeed him, Michael probably would have married Ky, had kids, graduated from college, chosen a non-criminal career (law, teaching, perhaps) and generally kept at arm's length from his family. His criminal tendencies may have remained dormant for the rest of his life. But, Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power that was deep inside Michael. I don't think he relished violence, but he never shied away from it in pursuit of the power that led him down the criminal path. The personal tragedy of Michael's life was his obsession with legitimizing his criminal activities--he never accepted the reality that he was a criminal. It tormented him and made him live a life of lies for himself, his wife and his children. He was "forced" to protect Vito by killing them The only one Sol would let near them Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed, it was not easy just to walk away He was a powerful man with responsibility for others Michael had the added impossible, unrealistic burden of Vito's obsession with legitimizing Vito's decades old criminal activities The personal tragedy of Michael's life was because of the wife he chose who became his horror that done him in She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039758
09/04/22 07:07 PM
09/04/22 07:07 PM
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There is the classic slow motion gradual close-up shot of Michael,outlining his plan to kill Sol and Mac. This is the moment when we realize that the old idealistic Michael is gone forever. I do agree with Turnbull that Mike had choices,but only before he crossed the line. Afterwards, as with any Mob Chief,there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire, I will concede that he probably went too far with some i.e. Fredo,Roth. As for the 5 families murders,I don't know many options he had. Had he merely executed Tessio as a traitor,he still would have Barzini and his puppet Dons to deal with. I do feel that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated,so it wasn't always "just business" Even Tom,at one point asked Mike 'Do you have to wipe everybody out"? Bottom line,IMHO, Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the sociopath that he was. As Capri said, Mike had choices,but only before Sonny was killed Roth always be a threat to Michael and wouldn't have rested until he was dead No doubt Fredo could have been spared Don't know that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated, I reckon they were justified murders I don't feel I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. They hit him so -- He hit 'em back Roth started it! Could you expand on your opinion -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- how you reckon Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the supposed sociopath that he was?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039765
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Mr Turnbull and Mr Para, I think you are being too harsh! on Michael How “Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power [if any!] that was deep inside Michael” or " impelled him to start on his life of crime"? Michael protecting his father by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey was at that stage, a one-off Besides Sonny was alive and it was Sonny who was always going to succeed Vito Michael was indeed "forced" to protect Vito by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey because Michael was “The only one Sol would let near them” as Sollozzo himself said to Sonny, Sollozzo wanted Michael to proposition - stall the Corleones with civilian Michael, to buy time and Michael's spot on strategy We can't wait I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo I believe Michael “accepted the reality that he was a criminal” because Michael told Geary “We're both part of the same hypocrisy” - Michael's choices were - Kill or be Killed
"Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed" “as with any Mob Chief, there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire” and they can never shy away from it not just to stay on Top but to stay alive
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039766
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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I reckon Sonny would have been boss in Nevada and de facto Don of Clemenza and Tessio It could work! Sonny gotta business to run He gotta kick asses sometimes to make it run right So with that famous temper of his, huh Sonny? can straighten things and people out.... Both Sonny and Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! too Though what to do with Carlo? Extract: 2) This next one is a bit off the wall,but how about a Casino Host in one of Sonny's properties? Sure thing Carlo is a hustler but a Casino Host in some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! Send Carlo, the Don's only son-in-law, to pick the “top high roller gamblers” up at the airport! This might stop Carlo hitting Connie though being “under the watchful eye of Sonny”
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039767
09/05/22 12:05 AM
09/05/22 12:05 AM
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Kangaroo Don
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My take, for what it is worth! The only thing we know for sure, per the movie, is in a deleted scene, after Connie's wedding, when Vito and his sons visit the dying Genco in hospital. Vito asks Michael what his plans are, and Michael, obviously uncomfortable, says, "Finish school." Vito says he approves, and tells Michael to come to him after graduation. Michael turns away from Vito why Michael obviously uncomfortable, to "Finish school." Tom did I don't think that Michael is uncomfortable about what he's telling Vito. He's uncomfortable about what he's concealing, about Kay and his relationship with the family Vito would have already seen him with Kay when he came to the wedding late and in his Marine uniform Nobody missed that!
Don't know Pete he may have disapproved of his American Girlfriend but I reckon there was nothing to conceal as their relationship was out in the open What was he concealing about Kay? He brought her to the wedding and dragged her into the family photo That he was going to marry Kay and "cut close ties with his family." Michael's “close ties with his family." among others - Extracts: Sonny: Your country's not your blood -- you remember that Michael: I don't feel that way. Sonny: Well if you don't feel that way why don't you just quit college and go to -- go to join the Army Michael: I did -- I enlisted in the Marines [Everyone is silent] Tom: Michael, why -- why didn't you come to us? I mean Pop had to pull a lot of strings to get you a deferment Michael: I didn't ask for a deferment -- and I didn't want it After the 'punch up' Sonny: Nice -- real nice -- break your fathers heart on his birthday - quit College and enlisted in the Marines in defiance of his father's big plans and high hopes for him
- Michael stayed put and remained seated all by himself when everyone else hurried to greet Vito at Vito's surprise birthday party
- Michael came to Carlo and Connie's wedding late and in his Marine uniform, hand in hand, flaunting, his American girlfriend, Kay and sat away from everyone
- Kay, an outsider 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant' WASP was also considered to be too forward or similar for an unmarried woman
Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered? 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039781
09/05/22 02:28 PM
09/05/22 02:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695 AZ
Turnbull
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Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered?, 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
In 1940, as the US ramped up military preparedness, the War Department started drafting young men into the Army--the largest of the military services. The Navy and Marine Corps relied on volunteers. Michael volunteered for the Marine Corps. His deferment from the Army draft was irrelevant to the Marines because he volunteered. Vito probably bribed, or had Tom bribe, a doctor to certify to Michael's Draft Board that Michael had some physical or mental condition that would render him unfit for military service. He might not have told Michael about it simply because he assumed that Michael wouldn't, or shouldn't, want to be drafted That was before Pearl Harbor.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039806
09/05/22 10:02 PM
09/05/22 10:02 PM
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No doubt it is nice, fun to flesh out the different opinions, interpretations, speculations, knowledge of the Forum members, in the spirit of the Board which keeps us conversing half a century on
My two cents worth! I reckon all the killings were justified even Fredo's, in view of this is the business they've chosen and they all know the consequences of what will happen as a result of their betrayal I believe, a man like Roth would risk going through it all again and again until he had Michael destroyed or dead This is the man who didn't care if women and children were killed as long as Michael was
He still had his 300 million, Questadt, Geary and he'd always remain a dangerous foe, stone in Michael's shoe and I reckon, needs to be wiped out Get him -- let's get him now, while they can
While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
No doubt Fredo could have been spared as we'd debated that Michael could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died
Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1039807
09/05/22 11:07 PM
09/05/22 11:07 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
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No doubt it is nice, fun to flesh out the different opinions, interpretations, speculations, knowledge of the Forum members, in the spirit of the Board which keeps us conversing half a century on
My two cents worth! I reckon all the killings were justified even Fredo's, in view of this is the business they've chosen and they all know the consequences of what will happen as a result of their betrayal I believe, a man like Roth would risk going through it all again and again until he had Michael destroyed or dead This is the man who didn't care if women and children were killed as long as Michael was
He still had his 300 million, Questadt, Geary and he'd always remain a dangerous foe, stone in Michael's shoe and I reckon, needs to be wiped out Get him -- let's get him now, while they can
While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
No doubt Fredo could have been spared as we'd debated that Michael could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died
Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ?
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1039809
09/06/22 03:10 AM
09/06/22 03:10 AM
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Posts: 565
Capri
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The personal tragedy of Michael's life was because of the wife he chose who became his horror that done him in She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman Kay Biggest hypocrite
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1039810
09/06/22 03:13 AM
09/06/22 03:13 AM
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Capri
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While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable, 1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign? 2. what about Khartoum?
Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039811
09/06/22 03:16 AM
09/06/22 03:16 AM
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Capri
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The prostitute in the brothel was slaughtered horribly so Mike could put the screws to Geary. This was an innocent girl who was treated like garbage by Mike. She was murdered and presumably dumped in a landfill,lake or shallow grave. And for what?
Why Tom get a pass? While some of the killings that Mike ordered could be justified as "self defense" and strictly business, the reason I consider him an incipient psycho are the ones that weren't necessary.
Fredo didn't have to die. Mike could have given him a pass and exiled him from the Family. Who but a true sociopath would kill his own brother. Of course Mad Sam DeStefano killed his own brother,but that kind of makes my point.
Why Fredo get a pass? same logic Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039816
09/06/22 08:49 AM
09/06/22 08:49 AM
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mustachepete
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Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass Why Tom get a pass?...
Why Fredo get a pass? At least speaking of this forum, I don't think that they get passes. Fredo, in particular, is seen much more darkly here than seems to be presented in the movie. Why some seem to get a pass in the movie itself is more of a "how." One technique is just using emotion, like Fredo in the boathouse, to create sympathy. Another is to show something completed, as with the prostitute's murder, so that Tom and Fredo aren't actually shown participating. The audience can only process so much in real time.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Capri]
#1039818
09/06/22 09:02 AM
09/06/22 09:02 AM
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Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
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Great thread! Catching up a bit... He was "forced" to protect Vito by killing them. the only one because Sol only meet Michael to proposition Mike had choices,but only before Sonny was killed Michael had choices all along. Hard choices, maybe, but still choices. Sure, Michael killing Sol and McCluskey himself was expedient but was it really necessary? The Family knew hours in advance where the meeting was going to be. It was a restaurant that was open to the public. Why not have some of their operatives eating dinner there and have them kill Sol and Mac? Why not have the hundred buttonmen Sonny bragged about make a frontal assault on the restaurant while Michael was in the bathroom? Sol and Mac had no idea that the Corleones knew where they were going to be (or that anyone would dare to kill Mac) so they wouldn't have had much security with them. It was Michael's desire to control things that made him unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac. But it wasn't the only way. I meant choosing to marry her after returning from Sicily
True he lost his first wife killed by the car bomb planted for him and Fredo because Vito stepped over him for his kid brother but no other grief if she had been like Carmela she'd have kept the family together no matter what
1. Anthony would have been at Law school 2. they wouldn't have been at the Opera where Mary was killed I don't know about that. Vito and Carmella were the prototypical Mafia couple, but they still had a son go so far as to enlist in the Marines and marry a WASP. One of the sub-themes in the Trilogy is the tension between assimilating into American society and retaining Old World values. Maybe Michael and, say, Apollonia would not have gotten a divorce but their son would be even more "American" than Michael was, so he still would most likely have wanted to forge his own path rather than accede to Michael's wish for him to become a lawyer.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#1039844
09/06/22 08:00 PM
09/06/22 08:00 PM
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Trojan
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True Michael was unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac because it was the only foolproof way.
I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it was short notice They were panicking that they didn't know where the meeting was going to be when they were eating dinner
Suddenly if there is a lot of activity at and around the restaurant and more than usual men dining there even for the best veal in the city, I reckon it would attract unwanted attention
Also it is fleshed out in the novel, Sol had his people check the restaurant out, bathroom and all and a man was actually dining there, keeping watch
As regards a frontal assault, Sol could have had people guarding the restaurant too
That's my family, Kay. It's not me Michael ended up Mafia Don so there is no guarantee however all he wanted was after the law degree, Anthony can do whatever he wanted, to forge his own path but he got no support from Kay
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: mustachepete]
#1039846
09/06/22 08:04 PM
09/06/22 08:04 PM
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Trojan
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Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass Why Tom get a pass?...
Why Fredo get a pass? At least speaking of this forum, I don't think that they get passes. Fredo, in particular, is seen much more darkly here than seems to be presented in the movie. Why some seem to get a pass in the movie itself is more of a "how." One technique is just using emotion, like Fredo in the boathouse, to create sympathy. Another is to show something completed, as with the prostitute's murder, so that Tom and Fredo aren't actually shown participating. The audience can only process so much in real time. As regards people getting a pass, I reckon, Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses He too was a cold blooded murderer despite his outward nice guy appearances like his threat of lethal force even in such simple business as the release of his Godson's contract We can be brutal to Mike that an innocent girl was slaughtered horribly and treated like garbage but no mention of Tom We are still debating Fredo could have been spared
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Turnbull]
#1039853
09/07/22 12:03 AM
09/07/22 12:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Side questions please 1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered?, 2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”
In 1940, as the US ramped up military preparedness, the War Department started drafting young men into the Army--the largest of the military services. The Navy and Marine Corps relied on volunteers. Michael volunteered for the Marine Corps. His deferment from the Army draft was irrelevant to the Marines because he volunteered. Vito probably bribed, or had Tom bribe, a doctor to certify to Michael's Draft Board that Michael had some physical or mental condition that would render him unfit for military service. He might not have told Michael about it simply because he assumed that Michael wouldn't, or shouldn't, want to be drafted That was before Pearl Harbor. Thanks Turnbull My misunderstanding, defiance is inaccurate Vito secured the Army draft deferment for Michael, not anticipating that Michael would end up volunteering with the Marines Michael didn't know Vito had secured him the Army draft deferment when Michael went to enlist with the Marines What about Sonny, Tom and Fredo? They were all able bodied young men fit for military service too Did Vito also manage to secure Army draft deferment for all of them
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1039854
09/07/22 12:03 AM
09/07/22 12:03 AM
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Kangaroo Don
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Extract: The prostitute in the brothel was slaughtered horribly so Mike could put the screws to Geary. This was an innocent girl who was treated like garbage by Mike. She was murdered and presumably dumped in a landfill,lake or shallow grave. And for what? 250,000 dollars Plus a monthly payment of 5% of the gross -- of all four hotels and Free gaming license Michael: Uh, senator -- you can have my answer now if you like My offer is this -- nothing Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally And before anyone slaughters! me.... Working Girl MurderI would say everyone is a reprehensible character varying only in accordance to their horrendous acts
The Geary, innocent working girl murder in which Tom himself played a big part, was beyond evil indeed All just to get Geary in the Corleones pocket that the girl's life was worthless "as if she never existed" the cruellest of them all
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039856
09/07/22 02:28 AM
09/07/22 02:28 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,695 AZ
Turnbull
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What about Sonny, Tom and Fredo? They were all able bodied young men fit for military service too Did Vito also manage to secure Army draft deferment for all of them
Of course. He could have bribed doctors to certify that they were "unfit" for service. Or he could have gotten one of his judges or politicians inform their Draft Board that they were "key employees" of the Genco Pura Olive Oil Company, and that without them, the company would go out of business, harming the war economy and putting other employees out of work. Another approach: Vito gave them "key positions" in the labor unions he controlled. Since the cooperation of unions was vital to the war effort, Vito's politicians would have no trouble convincing Draft Boards to grant them deferments or exemptions. Jimmy Hoffa, the Teamsters' powerhouse, used that ploy to escape the draft during WWII.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1039871
09/07/22 12:36 PM
09/07/22 12:36 PM
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Capri
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True Michael was unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac because it was the only foolproof way.
I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it was short notice They were panicking that they didn't know where the meeting was going to be when they were eating dinner
Suddenly if there is a lot of activity at and around the restaurant and more than usual men dining there even for the best veal in the city, I reckon it would attract unwanted attention
Also it is fleshed out in the novel, Sol had his people check the restaurant out, bathroom and all and a man was actually dining there, keeping watch
As regards a frontal assault, Sol could have had people guarding the restaurant too Too many variables like Sollozzo might not even be in the car
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1039915
09/08/22 08:54 AM
09/08/22 08:54 AM
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mustachepete
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Is this the most cunning of "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" Connie to Michael: And you stood Godfather to our baby -- you lousy cold-hearted bastard As the book informs, Michael didn't want to do this. Connie nags Kay, Kay nags Michael. Michael agrees, but tells Kay that it doesn't fix Connie's real problem - which is that she married the wrong type of guy. He doesn't feign close friendship with Carlo.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1039940
09/08/22 06:25 PM
09/08/22 06:25 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
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Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ? I have, what am I missing? I didn't mean to imply that you were missing anything. I just thought as a GF fan,you'd get a kick out of all the story lines that didn't make it to the film.
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Re: Michael's Grand plans
[Re: Trojan]
#1040041
09/10/22 11:02 PM
09/10/22 11:02 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
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Thank you Lou and you are not wrong For clarity, I thought I had missed something, being always hungry for and getting a kick out anything Godfather except Puzo droning on and on about Lucy, Fontane and Genco
As regards the story lines, from what I remember, 1. Luca Brasi's how evil he was and why he was so loyal to Vito 2. paedophile Woltz
this kind of makes my point about how Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses 1. as long as Luca was killing for him, his baby can be thrown into a fiery furnace while still alive 2. as long as Woltz gave the movie part to his Godson, he can keep molesting children
Neri's how brutal he was and why he was so loyal to Michael I couldn't agree more about the ponderous Lucy surgery storyline. Another great part of the novel was the whole Bocchicchio saga. Professional hostages,hell of a way to make a living.
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