What were they thinking?
Are these really the same people who created the Godfather and II masterpiece

Also he was so particular with his casting but III was like drama playschool

I think the best material in the trilogy is the material traceable back to Puzo's novel - the Godfather and the flashback sections of GF2. The remainder of GF2, I think, is a step below that - a script that's confusing in many ways but that's saved by the performances of Cazale, Strasberg, Gazzo, and Spradlin.

GF3? I watched it several months ago just to see if it had improved with age for me. It hadn't. I haven't seen the full Coda yet.

Good point GF3 a script that's confusing but drama playschool couldn't save it and one sided Michael punishment

even original cast member Pacino was no Michael Silly toupee

It was all about how his sins were terrible and just that he suffers but Kay gets off scot-free

I don't think it was a toupee, I believe it was his own hair just styled different

True Pete it hadn't occurred to me until you pointed out about the best material
While GF3 was convoluted and unbalanced, it was co-written by Puzo

I reckon it was like no one made any effort, maybe banking on the magic of Godfather and II to carry it through!

Stop! blaming Coppola and Puzo! It is Roth's fault!!

If Roth had succeeded in having Michael killed either in Tahoe or Havana - Roth would have done us a huge favour! - No Godfather 3!!

Astute observation indeed Pete Never occurred to me either thatHowever “it was co-written by Puzo” Coppola and Puzo lost their Midas touch!

Every actor in Godfather and Godfather 2 was terrific in the portrayal of their respective characters due to Coppola's terrific casting
They even looked like their characters!

While “GF3 was convoluted and unbalanced” with poor acting, isn't it Coppola's job to direct the actors

Al Pacino – Biography – IMDb

• Al Pacino on The Godfather: Part III (1990)

You know what the problem with that film is? The real problem?

Nobody wants to see Michael have retribution and feel guilty That's not who he is
In the other scripts, in Michael's mind he is avenging his family and saving them

Michael never thinks of himself as a gangster - not as a child, not while he is one and not afterward
That is not the image he has of himself

SPOILER

Michael has this code: he lives by something that makes audiences respond
But once he goes away from that and starts crying over coffins, making confessions and feeling remorse, it isn't right

I applaud [Francis Ford Coppola] for trying to get to that but Michael is so frozen in that image

There is in him a deep feeling of having betrayed his mother by killing his brother That was a mistake
And we are ruled by these mistakes in life as time goes on He was wrong

SPOILER

III is a good movie by the standards of most movies. It just isn't up to the platinum standards set by GF and II, for all the reasons people have cited. Still, I'd rather have it than not have it, if only because it brought closure to Michael Corleone's reprehensible life.

Don't know Turnbull I reckon II brought closure, in the platinum standards set by GF and II but you are correct, III was already disadvantaged before a shot was fired, by having Godfather in it's title which obviously elicited the high expectations

Crime does pay for some!
Vito's life was equally reprehensible but I reckon, he is seen through rose-colored glasses He too was a cold blooded murderer

Also I reckon he neglected his blood family, leaving all sorts of needless problems for Michael

Al Pacino – Biography – IMDb

• Al Pacino on The Godfather: Part III (1990)

I applaud [Francis Ford Coppola] for trying to get to that but Michael is so frozen in that image

I too applaud for trying to get us to feel the ultimate story, lesson and agony of Michael's horror metamorphosis and his wasted life

However I reckon, there were so many better plots and ways with existing previous characters instead of inventing new lame ones, picking actors who were poor choices, were unsuitable for their characters like George Hamilton for Robert Duvall

We keep harping on the poor performances but isn't it Coppola's job to direct the actors

I know Coppola wasn’t keen on doing it. He was perfectly happy with how Godfather 2. I think part of it was that he had a lot of flops in the 80’s and doing another GF would obviously draw a audience

True JCrusher, Coppola wasn't keen on doing it for 16 years because I too reckon, he was perfectly happy how II brought closure and completed the story until he got into financial strife with his flops and winery problems

While the gap may have been too long, it still drew an audience mostly negative though but made them money

My two cents worth!
1. where was the magic and the platinum standards set by GF and II
2. listless and indifferent
3. not comprehending fully the value of Tom Hagen / Robert Duvall Biggest mistake
4. convoluted and unbalanced plot
5. inventing new lame characters
6. picking actors who were poor choices, were unsuitable for their characters unlike his terrific previous casting
7. George Hamilton for Robert Duvall Seriously?
8. poor performances comes back to his directing or lack thereof
9. incest and putting us off gnocchi!

Mental Floss - 20 Facts About The Godfather Part III
by Todd Gilchrist 21 January 2021 | Updated: 19 March 2022

• Item 1 - Francis Ford Coppola had no plans to make a third Godfather film

Coppola must have had more flops! in that 8 odd years....

• Item 3 - Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo were given a bunch of completed scripts but chose to start from scratch

Interesting, I hadn't heard of this version? before....apple doesn't fall far from the tree

Mental Floss - 20 Facts About The Godfather Part III
by Todd Gilchrist 21 January 2021 | Updated: 19 March 2022

• Item 12 - Al Pacino’s hair became its own character in The Godfather Part III

Samson's hair was cut off not spiked, backcombed bouffant!

Naval officer Anthony interesting version

1. No Hagen biggest mistake
2. Kay biggest hypocrite
3. Don Vincent too easy and lame
4. Garcia was good
5. Sofia okay

They threw out Naval officer Anthony working for the CIA and fast-tracked Vincent out of nowhere, to Don Corleone

1. Hagen's son Priest
2. Michael's son Opera singer
3. Connie Godmother

I might be in the minority here but I reckon Sofia played the spoilt, entitled rich daughter okay, in spite of incest storyline and dubious dialogue

Delilah didn't do a good job then He was more powerful, wealthy and "legitimate" than ever in GFIII

Sure thing No Robert Duvall / Tom Hagen No brainer

My take as well, there were too many new “lame” characters who popped up in Godfather 3 that didn't fit in, instead of cultivating the "existing previous characters"
eg: Sonny and Sandra's son/s, Michael's son and even Connie's son/s as power struggle schemers instead of inventing the new character Vincent, Sonny and Lucy Mancini's son, out of nowhere, fast-tracked to Don Corleone

Andy Garcia still could have played Santino Jr. or Frank

I feel in Godfather 2 the new characters Pentangeli and Roth, in spite of the absence of Clemenza [granted not the big vacuum as no Hagen in Godfather 3] and Clemenza's mysterious, unexplained death - somehow pulled it off

Both Pentangeli and Roth's connection to the Corleones were believable!

Andrew Hagen: Godfather? Why did Andrew address Michael as Godfather?
Michael Andrew --
Andrew: Godfather…
Michael Off to Rome
Andrew: I wanted to thank you for all you’ve done for me For what?
Michael C’mon, you want to have some breakfast with us?
Andrew: No thanks I can’t
Michael All right How’s your Italian
Andrew: In fare di podi practico…
Michael (to Harrison) His father was a great lawyer [unlike you!]
BJ Harrison: I know…
Michael Didn’t live to see him ordained, I did You ever seen one of those?
Harrison: No
Michael Oh, beautiful I was so proud C’mon let me walk you out
Harrison: Andrew, if you hear any rumors flying around the Vatican you let me know, all right?
Michael Oh no, no Andrew has the true faith
[unlike lousy bastard Michael renouncing Satan whilst Michael's men were carrying out the Baptism massacre]

Mental Floss - 20 Facts About The Godfather Part III
by Todd Gilchrist 21 January 2021 | Updated: 19 March 2022

The original The Godfather (1972) and its 1974 sequel, The Godfather Part II, exist on the same “unassailable” level of cinema history that's typically reserved for only a handful of other films, including Citizen Kane

These are the rare movies that carry the kind of reputation that few people would ever dare challenge. Perhaps that’s why a lot of people, especially the ones loudly declaring The Godfather's greatness, seem to ignore the very existence of The Godfather Part III

Francis Ford Coppola returned to the well of his greatest commercial and critical success in 1990 for The Godfather Part III and it promptly became an unwelcome addition to an accomplishment that by all accounts was already perfect

Much of the negative attention was directed at the fact that Coppola cast his daughter Sofia (who was not then or now an actor) in a pivotal role and generally repeated too many elements of its predecessors to comparatively hollow effect

As the film celebrated its 30th anniversary in December 2020 Coppola finally delivered The Godfather Coda: The Death of Michael Corleone, a version of the film that most closely approximates the director's original vision for a conclusion to The Godfather saga

But even if a new, mercifully shorter version doesn't repair all the problems that audiences had with the film in its original form, there are a lot of details that explain
1. what happened including why it was made
2. what Coppola’s original ambitions for it were
3. and why some of them didn’t pan out

Check out just a few of the behind-the-scenes stories that led to a complicated finale for one of film history’s most acclaimed series

• Item 19 - The Godfather Coda has a different ending

SPOILER

I think they wanted to explore Michael's quest for social legitimacy with Vincent's quest for birth legitimacy, so it wouldn't work with the other kids.

That's an interesting theory, Pete.

If true, Coppola really failed to develop Vincent's quest to the same degree as Michael's.

And it makes the Vincent/Mary dalliance even less explicable (and more gross).

Coppola really failed to develop any drama
I think the gnocchi is still rolling, in the Coda

How was there a Don in Michael's legitimate world!

As regards Andrew Hagen's gratitude For what? to his Godfather? in a deleted scene Michael gives his blessing to Sonny's daughter's marriage, saying he was more a father to her than a uncle!

The Godfather II - deleted scene
Sonny's daughter Francesca and fiancé Gardener Shaw
Michael gives his blessing to Sonny's daughter's marriage

Sadly, it also showed how Fredo was not part of Family matters nor Family business nor....And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --

Mental Floss - 20 Facts About The Godfather Part III
by Todd Gilchrist 21 January 2021 | Updated: 19 March 2022

• Item 8 - Andy Garcia had a lot of A-list competition for his role in The Godfather Part III

Quite an impressive list

He didn't think to cast one of them instead of George Hamilton

Poor Fredo copped it left, right and center from everyone on everything

and the new Rockefeller of philanthropy

• Item 19 - The Godfather Coda has a different ending

SPOILER

never forgets what? Mary murder not avenged

Missed him in GFIII

John Cazale died in 1978 aged only 42 of cancer
I think he was in only five films all of which were acclaimed and won several awards though sadly he was not personally nominated, in spite of his stellar performances

The confusing and unanswered ambiguity were saved by the superb acting including,
1. who killed the Tahoe assassins
2. was Fredo's little help, opening the drapes, for the Donship
3. why did Michael tell Fredo that Hyman Roth will never see the New Year
4. how did Fredo get out of Cuba
5. how did Kay get the abortion
6. why did Michael just accept the abortion

Biggest question of them all
Why didn't Coppola pay fair money to Robert Duvall to reprise Tom and make a decent GFIII

Robert Duvall On Not Being In The Godfather III | Larry King Now | Ora.TV
Robert Duvall tells Larry King why he turned down The Godfather III and how Francis Ford Coppola came to his farm to ask if he'd be in the film but left caring more about Duvall's mother's crab cake recipe than the movie

Robert Duvall-Seth Meyers interview
Duvall was only asking for "fair money" indeed Duvall felt the pay gap between Al Pacino and him was unacceptable

• Funko Pop! Movies: The Godfather 50th Anniversary Collectors Set - 3 Figure Set: Michael, Vito, Sonny

Poor Fredo indeed not even worthy of a Collector Figure....excluded in the set as well

And there isn't even a plaque -- or a signpost of him -- or a Hail Mary in that Lake!

The deleted scene with Sonny's daughter, her beau, and Michael (one of the best, IMO) has a deleted scene of its own:

In "The Godfather Saga," shown often on US cable TV, at the very end of that deleted scene, Michael turns to a hulking young man wearing a plaid sport coat and says, "How's the football, Santino?" "Fine, Uncle Michael," he replies. That young man is Sonny's second son, seen for the first and only time. We saw his first son, Frank, in the scene when Vito comes home from the hospital, giving Vito a get-well. card. The "Saga" is GF and II, in chronological order and with all the deleted scenes spliced in where they belong, far and away the best version.

Such a pity Sonny's sons were so underused
I don't think I'd seen this extra bit with Sonny's second son....Anyone recorded "The Godfather Saga"?!

Sonny's daughters were seen believe for the first and only time? in Vito's surprise birthday flashback scene “Daddy's fighting again”

There were so many Godfather worthy plots including - Anthony's turn! “Pop, I'll take care of you now I'm with you now I'm with you” - However Coppola and Puzo's brain was soft from all that crab cake comedy they were playing with Duvall's mother's recipe!

Sonny's sons not used at all

It was all about how Michael's sins were terrible and just that he suffers but Kay gets off scot-free

No doubt his choices, decisions, deeds were good, bad and ugly However so were the circumstances Once in, downward spiral

When I first saw, I thought they were Fredo, Michael and Sonny because Vito didn't have a mustache until I noticed the cat in his lap

What is Sonny holding? Is that bullet proof shield against machine gun fire at toll booths!

Vito did have a mustache in GF1.
The object Sonny is holding appears to be a garbage can lid,a reference to the one he beat Carlo with.
I think it would have been funny if,when they were strangling Carlo in the car,Clemenza said "Sonny Corleone says Hello"

Mr Para, you are right, on all counts!

"Sonny Corleone says Hello" would have been a nice touch indeed and poetic justice....

Coppola and Puzo punished Michael mercilessly! and Pacino let them!
The degradation of once powerful [albeit nefarious] man was absolutely brutal indeed Oh, the ignominy of it all....

I think the worst punishment of all was Michael's ridiculous hairstyle in GF 3.(LOL)

No doubt Coppola and Puzo punished us mercilessly! too

another was the gnocchi rolling and putting us off gnocchi!

You are correct I am slippin'!

I remember, they were debating whether the young Vito, Robert De Niro should have a mustache or not and I got them mixed up
Thank you Lou Obviously it can only be the garbage can lid Duh!

True it would have been a nice touch indeed and poetic justice....

I reckon, Carlo blinded by his burning desire for revenge for Sonny's public beating humiliation of him, probably didn't think it through that he was setting him up, for his murder

Sure thing as obvious as it was....but Carlo blinded by all-consuming revenge for "Sonny's public beating humiliation of him"

The woman [Mrs. Barzini?!] calling Carlo and Connie's home and Carlo refusing to eat the dinner Connie had cooked, among others, was setting the scene -
1. to provoke Connie
2. Carlo to hit Connie
3. Connie to phone Sonny

and gambling on hot-headed Sonny even more enraged that Carlo dared to hit Connie again even after Sonny's ominous warning, rushing out like Sonny did....

obvious You blamed him for Sonny -- you always did. Everybody did.

Also he wouldn't have needed much persuasion if any at all either and would have done it without something in it for him unlike Fredo

Tony Rosato had no dialog, ad-libbed They leave it in

The Godfather at 50
The New York Times by Dave Itzkoff March 9, 2022

Al Pacino on The Godfather: "It’s Taken Me a Lifetime to Accept It and Move On"

• Who from the movie doesn’t get enough credit for their contribution?

John Cazale in general, was one of the great actors of our time — that time, any time
I learned so much from him I had done a lot of theater and three films with him He was inspiring, he just was

And he didn’t get credit for any of it

He was in five films, all Oscar-nominated films and he was great in all of them
He was particularly great in Godfather II and I don’t think he got that kind of recognition

Their sons not used at all

Altobello and Kay had met before?! When? Where?

You might well ask, When did Michael and Altobello meet? Where did Altobello come from?

Wasn't he Connie's Godfather

Yes, but he must have been connected to the family in some major way. Someone posted a while back that he may have been brought back to run the "olive oil business" after Pentangeli flipped and the Rosato brothers went on the lam.