. So that means it’s ok to murder your brother? Plus even Mike himself said “I know Roth misled him and he didnt know they were going to try and kill me”

Is anyone here getting tired of this discussion?

. Honestly a little bit lol.

One for the road!

Whilst Michael's greed made him careless, saying stupid things....

Both Michael and Roth continuing their charade!
Just the two of them 'completely relaxed and confident' in their friendship! No Neri / Bussetta or Ola

Roth's house
What is going on here?!

• killing Pentangeli and giving the Rosato brothers the three territories in the Bronx - ensures? Michael's important business with Roth -- remains undisturbed
• once the above is done, nothing interferes with Michael and Roth's future plans
• how does Roth have clout and control not starting another war
• and why would "the mighty Michael Corleone" visit? "his own subordinate" "who tried to have him killed"
• just send Neri or Rocco “Michael Corleone says Hello”!

Nobody “would buy and be fooled” by that BS!

I am not trying to untire! this thread but I only picked this up now.... and am confused! why the Rosato brothers tried to kill Pentangeli?

Pentangeli's house - Michael to Pentangeli:
What was Michael expecting to happen at the Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting? I believed, in the old days! -

• Michael was not expecting Pentangeli to come to any harm other than the humiliating back down, perhaps handing over the three territories and in the process looking weak etc.
• Besides if Pentangeli is killed and Rosato brothers, Roth's ally take over the Corleone operation then Michael loses his muscle and becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone
• Hence Michael would never want to lose his muscle which is the only thing that makes Michael untouchable!
• and Michael can't afford to let his man's murder go unavenged - danger of starting another war

So....

• Why would Michael envisage the Rosato brothers would fail Roth
• and How

I hadn't picked up on this either
1. how they can fail him
2. and how that would make their relationship still good

I will have to watch that scene again but going by the dialog, it doesn't make any sense
Then again, Michael's been careless, saying stupid things....

I too reckon Michael was not expecting Pentangeli to come to any harm because he needs the muscle and if he did, no doubt Michael can't afford to let his man's murder go unavenged

It made him look ridiculous! can he lay it on any thicker

he did

Good point Capri Michael did let his man's murder go unavenged indeed
and Michael didn't know “Alive -- Pentangeli is alive”

There is also the insult of the C-note

I doubt Roth would have sanctioned Pentangeli's murder but perhaps Roth did?
Rosato brothers small potatoes!

even though Michael was to have been killed in Havana, the Corleones would have lost their muscle, their Caporegime so that Neri and Rocco can't retaliate swiftly

The Rosato brothers could have taken over and well established themselves in New York, by the time the Corleones have regrouped [if] following all the chaos ensued if Michael had been killed in Havana and no muscle

True same as Vito's shooting couldn't have happened without Barzini sanctioning it

Rosato brothers small potatoes! backed up by that Jew in Miami, with clout

how he think he'll be able to find out who the traitor in my family was in Havana

The traitor in his family, his own brother Fredo was brought to Havana on the pretext of bringing a bag full of money, for him to find out

Mystery why he had the money brought over after he witnessed the rebels can win and he just wanna -- just wanna wait

Not very logical--the risk would have been enormous.

I posted on this a long time ago. One possibility is that Michael needed to keep stringing Roth along with the promise of the $2 million until he found out who was the traitor. As he told Pentangeli, he needed Roth relaxed, confident that their relationship was still good. Having the $2 million brought to Havana was one way to keep that going.

Another possibility (admittedly a stretch): Michael knew the rebels would win. He knew he had to have Roth killed, but he still wanted Roth's Havana holdings. He figired the rebels would be just as open to corruption as was Batista, and would want the casinos to stay open because they brought in tourist dollars. By bringing the money, he was signaling to the about-to-be new regime that he was willing to make a big buy-in.

It seems to me, Michael had tipped his hand to Roth that their relationship was not still good?
1. by not bringing the $2 million with him
2. then not handing over the bag full of money Fredo brought

Why did Michael think the key, to finding out - who was the traitor in his family - was in Havana

Superman excitement! dialogue
If

• Fredo didn't get roped in, to come to Havana to bring the $2 million
• Geary hadn't asked Fredo “where did you find this place?”
• Fredo wasn't so taken up with Superman's....! [Cazale's superb acting – Fredo's face wow!]
• thus Fredo had not revealed himself as the traitor in the family

Then what?!

What you say makes sense that no one would have expected the Castro rebels new regime to kill the goose that was laying the golden eggs – to shut the casinos down and following on, the tourist business bringing in the dollars

Businessmen! like Roth and Michael “willing to make a big buy-in” with any one, be it Batista or Castro for protection, so that Michael and Roth are free to make their profits

Everyone else even Roth believed Batista -- we will tolerate no guerrillas in casinos, or the swimming pools. Not Michael

Michael had tipped his hand to Roth, by turning up without the $2 million

Then having the money brought over makes no sense to me. I too reckon Not very logical--the risk would have been enormous.
and no valid reason either. He had the plane waiting to take them to Miami in an hour. He wasn't hanging around to make a big buy-in.

Pacino's superb acting – Mentally wrecked, physically sick in great pain realizing that Fredo is the Family traitor
If Fredo had not revealed himself as the traitor in the family then all live happily for a hundred years -- the family.

Not true If traitor not found more attempt to kill him

While Michael seems to have ascertained Batista was governing on borrowed time, Michael could not have known Batista's resignation would happen at the New Year's Eve party – that night

Michael still hanging around at the party even after finding out that Fredo was the Family traitor and knowing Michael only had until the party was over when Michael would be assassinated – Michael will never see the New Year - Beats me!

Michael still hanging around is up there with,
1. who killed the Tahoe assassins
2. why tell Fredo
3. how did Kay get the abortion

No doubt there was strong provocation by Fredo, I reckon, he would still have been spared if he didn't have the boathouse outburst

I’d say one reason Mikey didn’t hand the money over right away was to string along Roth because he knew if he paid him right away when they met then their plan is in motion to kill him. The longer he strings Roth along the more time he buys himself no matter what. Just him slow playing his hand while trying to figure out who turned on him.

Also he had to bring the money I think because Roth had people watching as he mentioned Mike bringing the money to the island. If it doesn’t turn up then he’ll think for sure there is no deal

Sure thing, my take too and I believe many have posted as well Fredo was to have been spared and would have been spared even after the “something in it for me -- on my own” but it was the stepped over! jealousy and resentment outburst that was the final nail indeed

However still could / should have been spared

Sure thing the real reason for courier! Fredo was to reveal the traitor in the family “who turned on him” to Michael
We, the audience already knew [courtesy of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo]

• Michael and Fredo having drinks in Havana

Michael already knew that Roth's “plan is in motion to kill him” after the New Year's Eve party as above ie: No more time to buy

Point taken about Michael bringing the money over “to string along Roth” although by then it seemed neither Michael nor Roth, were fooling or fooled by the other

Michael was all set to be murdered after the party with or without the $2 million but of course if it fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus! and added bonus Michael's own money paying for his own murder