It's all rather complicated when you start speculating about motivations. However, I am surprised that someone who had Michael's intelligence and intuition did not pick up on Fredo's feelings.

Michael [and Vito] underestimated Fredo
Nobody not Michael, not even Vito had any inclination how detrimental Fredo would be, arguably even setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship

Very insightful post, Evita. I agree with what you said. Especially how Fredo was underestimated. He was such an ineffectual dunce in GF that his betrayal of Michael in II had strong impact--we probably never would have guessed he had it in him...and what else he might have tried if Michael had given him a pass. Guilt and gratitude are the most fleeting of emotions.

Fredo: I haven't got a lot to say Mike I was kept pretty much in the dark I didn't know all that much [yeah right]
Michael: What about now Is there anything you can help me out with Anything you can tell me now
Fredo: They've got Pentangeli that's all I can tell you
After Fredo's outburst
Michael: Is there -- you can tell me about this investigation?
Fredo: The Senate Lawyer Questadt -- he belongs to Roth [finally]

The committee will stand in recess until ten o'clock when this committee will produce a witness who collaborates the charges that were made against you today and at which time Mr. Corleone you may very well be subject to indictment for perjury

Tom: Uh -- I think he got out -- he must be somewhere in New York

Alright -- I want you to get in touch with him -- I know he's scared -- tell him everything's all right. Tell him I know Roth misled him -- and he didn't know they were planing to kill me

Lana, I admire your faith in Michael's brotherly concern for Fredo. But I don't share it. I don't think Michael loved anyone or anything except power. He just wanted to get everything from Fredo that he knew about Roth; once he got that in the boathouse meeting, Fredo was "nothing to me now."

Fredo, you're nothing to me now you're not a brother, you're not a friend, I don't want to know you or what you do --
I don't want to see you at the hotels -- I don't want you near my house -- when you see our mother I want to know a day in advance, so I won't be there -- you understand

I think he did love Kay before Vito's shooting put him into the Family business. But when he returned to the US, I think she was basically a WASP ticket-punch for Michael--another ornament in his quest for "respectability." That scene in New Hampshire with him "wooing" Kay (Michael wearing that ridiculous Homburg hat, looking like a pint-sized banker) had all the passion of a real estate negotiation--with Kay as his property.

I came here because I need you -- because I care for you -- because -- I want you to marry me...

I am not sure about the “WASP ticket-punch” It seems the WASP is our doing!
j
As far as I can recall there was no such mention in the movie?

My take, for what it is worth!
Fredo, initially also lied to Michael

Fredo grudgingly "revealing what he knew" was painful to watch like pulling teeth
As regards Frankie Pentangeli's survival, the chairman was very helpful! telling Michael about their secret star witness
Sure thing "Fredo was far more involved with Roth and Ola than he let on"

Fredo betrayed his kid brother, Michael for personal gain "something in it for me if I'd help 'em out" and then continued trying to harm, hurt and injure Michael by still withholding information he knew, to gain that "something"

even if Fredo 'really' didn't know it was gonna be a hit, Fredo "waiting to reveal what he knew until after Michael perjured himself" that too not voluntarily [even though it made no difference to Michael's defense as Vincenzo Pentangeli, Frankie's brother was already on his way to enforce omertà and bail Michael out] was to try and send Michael to Prison because the hit failed and that "something" arguably the Donship, was not yet gained

There is no redeeming feature

even if Fredo 'really' didn't know it was gonna be a hit, Fredo "waiting to reveal what he knew until after Michael perjured himself" that too not voluntarily [even though it made no difference to Michael's defense as Vincenzo Pentangeli, Frankie's brother was already on his way to enforce omertà and bail Michael out] was to try and send Michael to Prison because the hit failed and that "something" arguably the Donship, was not yet gained

I don't think anyone, including Fredo, expected Mike to beat the Senate Committee.
Pentangeli's recanting was out of the blue.
I think Fredo, like pretty much everybody, figured that Five Angels would bury Mike,so he had nothing to lose by telling Mike about it.

The one thing I feel strongly about is the utter evil and cold-blooded decision by Mike to kill Fredo.

I agree that Fredo did not deserve to be killed.
Now,if he took a shot at Mike and missed,OK, then all bets are off.

But he didn't,and Mike showed his true colors by killing him

.

Neri: The FBI has him [Pentangeli] air-tight -- he's on an army base twenty-four hour guards
Tom: No way we can get to him. If we don't it's up to five counts of perjury

Michael made the decision in the heat of the moment immediately after Fredo's Boathouse outburst but no doubt he could have been spared as we debated in various threads that he could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died

Still Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death. He had the money and the resources Besides if Mama had lived longer....

Michael: You believed that story? You believed that? [We don't! either]

I reckon, Fredo dissembled or otherwise -- It [his little help arguably opening the drapes --] was to identify Michael's bedroom for the hit

Although he says he didn't know it was going to be a hit, then what purpose was opening the drapes going to accomplish?

how in the hell does opening the drapes serve that purpose? [Mike was being "tough on the negotiations"]

Excellent movie-fact based analysis' with articulate new takes as well

If -- it'd be good for the family, Why did Fredo need something in it for me -- on my own, to help out?

Besides as Evita posted “He was not involved in their big deal together So what little help he could give -- inconceivable” indeed

Extracts:
Sure thing Turnbull whether Fredo dissembled or not -- He let his greed for what he thought he deserved close his eyes, ears and mind to what would inevitably happen as a result of his "help."

• Why didn't Fredo help Michael out instead of telling lie after lie from claiming to not know Roth and Ola
• Why was Fredo withholding information “he knew until after Michael perjured himself" [even though it made no difference whatsoever to Michael's defense]

Fredo's credibility if any shot to pieces

Sure thing Evita "No bigger shot and respect than Don Fredo Corleone" indeed

Well put Lou, Fredo seething with jealousy, resentment -- the idea of helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched.
and you are right Sadly neither brother achieved his goal even with trying to kill / killing the other one

Fredo traitor in the family betrayed his kid brother, Michael for personal gain arguably the Donship itself Fredo so coveted
Take sides against the family second time even after warning

helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched. thinking Mike was going to jail.
No bigger shot and respect than Don Fredo Corleone

There is no redeeming feature

[What did he actually gain by murdering Fredo? People being more terrified of him?

Again there really is zero evidence that shows Fredo wanted to kill him

Michael is a thoroughly reprehensible character. In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "This was the business he chose."


Yes, If Ola had flat-out asked Fredo to help in the murder of his brother, Fredo would have said no. So, Ola played him--Michael was being tough on negotiations, they needed information, bla-bla-bla. But, Fredo just closed his eyes,,ears and mind to what was going to happen when Ola told him to open the drapes--especially since he was promised "there'd be something in it for me."


:

In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "

This all runs back into the earliest conception of the movies, and into the novel. Michael is a rationalist - the mathematics professor - and the inheritor of what Coppola called Vito's "intelligence, cunning and coldness." He just does calculations in his head, and dishes out what's deserved, no matter who's on the other end of it.

In the novel, Kay reflects that she loves that Michael is "always fair." Fairness can have a dark side - when crossed, a fair person can proceed completely without conscience in settling the score. That's Michael.

Fredo traitor in the family betrayed his kid brother, Michael for personal gain arguably the Donship itself Fredo so coveted
Take sides against the family second time even after warning

helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched. thinking Mike was going to jail.
No bigger shot and respect than Don Fredo Corleone

There is no redeeming feature

But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever!

Michael is a thoroughly reprehensible character. In his mind, if he showed any mercy or forgiveness to anyone who "injured " him--even his own brother-- (as he put it to Cardinal Lamberto in III), it would be viewed as a sign of "weakness" by enemies and friends alike--and would endanger his life. "This was the business he chose."

Yes, If Ola had flat-out asked Fredo to help in the murder of his brother, Fredo would have said no. So, Ola played him--Michael was being tough on negotiations, they needed information, bla-bla-bla. But, Fredo just closed his eyes,,ears and mind to what was going to happen when Ola told him to open the drapes--especially since he was promised "there'd be something in it for me.":

Extract:
Given the years that Fredo brooded over getting stepped over,being relegated to menial duties in the Family,and basically being thought of as a joke,he finally just lost it andthe idea of helping get rid of Mike is not so far-fetched.
I don't think that he would have had any more of a problem getting Mike killed,than Mike had about killing him.
And yes,Fredo was a marshmallow,but helping someone else do the work is a whole nother story.

Extract:
Michael, like father like son and like Vito, negotiated first and used murder generally as a last resort, Michael's first choice was not murder. He's no different than his father

Khartoum and Hooker -- both were defenseless, truly innocent victims and I reckon, parallel could be drawn

The collateral damage is unfortunate, in the business they've chosen same as Don Ciccio's guards

Extract:
On the other hand, Michael, who could have used violence or murder against Roth, didn't--he was negotiating for the Havana properties. Roth, on the other hand, set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if Kay was killed in the attack. Moral of story: No honor among thieves

Was Michael bloodthirsty?[quote=Evita]Extract:
Michael, like father like son and like Vito, negotiated first and used murder generally as a last resort, Michael's first choice was not murder. He's no different than his father

Khartoum and Hooker -- both were defenseless, truly innocent victims and I reckon, parallel could be drawn

The collateral damage is unfortunate, in the business they've chosen same as Don Ciccio's guards

Extract:
On the other hand, Michael, who could have used violence or murder against Roth, didn't--he was negotiating for the Havana properties. Roth, on the other hand, set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if Kay was killed in the attack. Moral of story: No honor among thieves[/quote

]

Vito did business with Hyman Roth,Vito respected Hyman Roth,but Vito never trusted Hyman Roth

.

True Lou nobody trusted anyone and didn't care about the collateral damage be it were defenseless, truly innocent victims
No honor among thieves

I reckon, comparing Vito and Michael is apples and oranges Vito's criminal world Michael's “legitimate” world
Times have changed. It's not like the Old Days -- when we can do anything we want

I reckon, Vito the evil, ruthless, murderous original villain is seen through rose-colored glasses

As we debated in Criminality and legitimacy thread
“He dispensed [his] “justice” to fellow Sicilians who shared his values and demanded friendship, loyalty and respect in return” always with a caveat

1. Killed Fanucci
2. Bandleader's signature or brains for his Godson's contract release
3. made Bonasera grovel when he insulted Vito by offering him money
4. Killed Khartoum for his Godson's Movie part
5. Killed, a senile, Don Ciccio living out his last days other side of the world no threat to the Corleones
6. Trusted Tessio set his son up to be murdered

We debate Fredo's murder but he did exactly the same and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed for personal gain arguably the Donship, Fredo so coveted, Don Fredo Corleone

Fredo unlike Michael no remorse no regret

Michael Oh! What a brother! showed understanding "mercy and forgiveness" to Fredo until Fredo's boathouse outburst, gave him a pass

No one was more honorable, more respected and liked than Roth -- set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if women and children was killed

No one was more honorable, more respected and liked than Roth -- set up the machine gun attack at Tahoe, and didn't care if women and children was killed