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Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves #1092063
06/10/24 12:06 AM
06/10/24 12:06 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline OP
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The Last Woltz
Quote
I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves
They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them

  • Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family
  • Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years
  • Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever
  • And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected

Kangaroo Don
  • Vito believes his no to Sollozzo drug deal and then sending Luca over to Tattaglias will find what they have under their fingernails
  • Vito believes after the Baptism, Moe Greene, Carlo murders Michael can live a 'legitimate' life
  • Woltz acts he is bigger than the Corleones and wakes up with his prized horse Khartoum's head
  • Greene thinks he can slap a Corleone around, insult another Corleone and somehow keep the hotel
  • Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada
  • Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family
  • Geary thinks he can insult, squeeze the Top Mafia Don for 250,000 dollars Plus a monthly payment of 5% of the gross of all four hotels -- and Mr. Corleone will just pay up and keep paying

Trojan
Kay thinks she can abort their unborn son and somehow he'd let her take the children from him

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092116
06/10/24 07:28 PM
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I reckon, the biggest lying to themselves were the women Biggest Hypocrites

They knew exactly what their husband's business was that their rich and privileged life was funded by tainted money from other people's blood, misery and murder

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1092123
06/11/24 12:02 AM
06/11/24 12:02 AM
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You are not wrong!

Roth's wife, Marcia blissfully and conveniently ignorant! of her husband's business
Where and how did Marcia think her retired investor on a pension, husband accumulate $300 million in his 'pension' silk purse

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092272
06/13/24 03:03 AM
06/13/24 03:03 AM
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tuna sandwich lunch That's how lol

Roth don't like violence, He is a business man. Blood is a big expense.

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1092388
06/14/24 08:05 PM
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True. Tahoe shooting was his first ever violence. Looks like they were hired out of Rosato brothers crew

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1092404
06/15/24 12:04 AM
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In fairness to Michael, Roth was stringing Michael along among others “gifting” their Hotel and pretending “to go along” with Michael moving Klingman out instead if Roth had been honest perhaps Michael and Roth could have worked out some mutually beneficial arrangement

As regards Roth's Havana business, I believe Michael understood that whilst Michael was Roth's successor, the heir apparent, Roth was always going to hold onto his Havana empire until Roth's retirement or death and at that time, Michael would inherit Roth's interests in the Havana operation but we all know Roth was somehow going to rule his empire forever!

Then both Michael and Roth could live happily for a hundred years! Nobody any the wiser

Michael, his "legitimate" life, decent American, gambling mogul, public Benefactor and Roth, the average neighbour, harmless old man, his carefully cultivated reputation as a retired investor on a pension intact

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092460
06/15/24 10:48 PM
06/15/24 10:48 PM
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Michael overestimated -- He acts like I'm his son his successor the heir apparent and underestimated Roth

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1092461
06/16/24 12:03 AM
06/16/24 12:03 AM
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Sure thing Michael's greed, nearly undone himself with Roth believing Roth that Michael was Roth's successor, the heir apparent, their father-son alliance -- blinded until Michael survived the Tahoe bedroom shooting

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092462
06/16/24 12:03 AM
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  • Connie thinks she can see her children on weekends, fly around the world with men who don't even care about her and use her like a whore! and Michael somehow would fund her junket on The Queen with her latest husband to be....
  • Merle thinks his 'future' brother-in-law Michael would fund Merle's freeloading extravagant Lifestyle with his sister

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092470
06/16/24 08:25 AM
06/16/24 08:25 AM
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It concerns me, too. Is it okay, Mike, if I stay? his passage on The Queen rolleyes

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092471
06/16/24 08:27 AM
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Vito we're not murderers uhwhat

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1092666
06/20/24 12:06 AM
06/20/24 12:06 AM
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Quote
Michael: Now -- I don't know this Merle -- I don't know what he does -- I don't know what he lives on [I do!]
Now why don't you tell him that marriage is out of the question and you don't want to see him anymore.
Now he'll understand, believe me. Connie -- if you don't listen to me -- and marry this man -- you'll disappoint me

The way Michael totally ignored Merle as if Merle wasn't even there....
Merle and Connie holding hands would sway?! Michael to pay their passage on The Queen

Merle so used to living off women [or his 'future' brother-in-law] just sits through it all.... shameless
then again Merle's got to be -- thick-skinned -- in his line of work!

Only Michael Corleone can make “you'll disappoint me” sound menacing

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092862
06/23/24 05:04 AM
06/23/24 05:04 AM
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she didn't disappoint didn't marry him

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092894
06/23/24 07:20 PM
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Eh gosh -- imagine the nerve of the gigolo Also wanting a drink

How did you do your new handle Kangaroo Don

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1092907
06/24/24 12:08 AM
06/24/24 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Evita
How did you do your new handle Kangaroo Don
Turnbull is a good man -- changed it for me

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092908
06/24/24 12:08 AM
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Sollozzo couldn't even remember his own lies!

In the car
Quote
Michael: We'll straighten everything out tonight. I don't want my father bothered any more...
Sollozzo: He won't be, Mike; I swear on my children he won't be.

later at Louis' Restaurant in the Bronx
Quote
Michael: What I want -- what's most important to me -- is that I have a guarantee: No more attempts on my father's life.
Sollozzo: What guarantees could I give you, Mike? I am the hunted one!
I missed my chance. You think too much of me, kid -- I'm not that clever. All I want, is a truce.

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092957
06/24/24 07:11 PM
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McCluskey the untouchable New York Police captain

It is fleshed out in the novel that McCluskey never expected Michael was going to kill him too
He was waiting for Michael to surrender

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1092985
06/25/24 12:03 AM
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Great casting in small roles

Al Lettieri as Solozzo: Perfect!
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Evita
Solozzo's evil look when he told Tom let me worry about Luca

That look, over the coffee cup, could have won an Oscar by itself.

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1092987
06/25/24 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Sollozzo couldn't even remember his own lies!

In the car
Quote
Michael: We'll straighten everything out tonight. I don't want my father bothered any more...
Sollozzo: He won't be, Mike; I swear on my children he won't be.

later at Louis' Restaurant in the Bronx
Quote
Michael: What I want -- what's most important to me -- is that I have a guarantee: No more attempts on my father's life.
Sollozzo: What guarantees could I give you, Mike? I am the hunted one!
I missed my chance. You think too much of me, kid -- I'm not that clever. All I want, is a truce.



To be fair he didn’t really lie. The Don was never touched again and Sollozzo was the hunted one.

He pretty much laid out how the rest of his life would go (how short it was lol). Sollozzo was cocky enough to think he could negotiate his way out of killing the Don while laying the blueprint of The Corleone’s Revenge

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: dixiemafia] #1093000
06/25/24 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dixiemafia

To be fair he didn’t really lie. The Don was never touched again and Sollozzo was the hunted one.

He pretty much laid out how the rest of his life would go (how short it was lol). Sollozzo was cocky enough to think he could negotiate his way out of killing the Don while laying the blueprint of The Corleone’s Revenge

Could you expand on your answer -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- how he think he could negotiate his way out of killing the Don while laying the blueprint of The Corleone’s Revenge confused

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1093001
06/25/24 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Trojan
McCluskey the untouchable New York Police captain

It is fleshed out in the novel that McCluskey never expected Michael was going to kill him too
He was waiting for Michael to surrender

I frisked him -- he's clean. I've frisked a thousand young punks... 1,001 bang! bang! lol

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: dixiemafia] #1093053
06/25/24 06:50 PM
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True Sollozzo was cocky enough to think he could stall the Corleones to buy time, to make another attempt to kill Vito -- underestimating civilian Michael

He won't be, Mike; I swear on my children he won't be. Then What guarantees could I give you, Mike?
So swearing on his children he won't be, was a lie but then had a dose of truth serum!

I mean, this is terrible -- it's not the way I wanted things to go at all. It should've never happened. Then What happened to your father was business -- You must understand why I had to do that... Twice!

All I want, is a truce until third time lucky!

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1093066
06/26/24 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Capri
Could you expand on your answer -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- how he think he could negotiate his way out of killing the Don while laying the blueprint of The Corleone’s Revenge confused


You think he knowingly went to that restaurant to willingly die? lol

He was there to negotiate and as Trojan said he overlooked Mike and thought Michael didn’t have the cajones to kill him. The Corleone’s wanted blood and the one person Sollozzo overlooked was the one that put a bullet in his face. He made it easy to kill him by Sollozzo wanting to negotiate his surrender in hopes it buys him time to kill the Don.

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: dixiemafia] #1093076
06/26/24 05:19 AM
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Michael was right -- he's gonna kill Pop, that's it. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo
Where does it say that you can't kill a cop? -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you can kill anybody.

Sollozo was right I am the hunted one!
I'm not that clever. Otherwise he frisk him when he came back not when he went, to the bathroom

McCluskey was wrong Ahh, he's a good kid.

Both were wrong No one was to die
To be fair they were under the impression, Corleone didn't know where the meeting was taking place

Tom was wrong Sollozzo was not invulnerable being guarded by New York Police captain

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1093184
06/27/24 12:07 AM
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Michael was right indeed
Quote
Michael: We can't wait. I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo

Sonny: Lemme ask you something, Professor, I mean -- what about McCluskey? Huh? What do we do with this -- cop here?

Michael: But if Clemenza can figure a way -- to have a weapon planted there for me -- then I'll kill 'em both. Whoa!

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1093185
06/27/24 12:07 AM
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Quote
Michael: I'm talking about ah - ah - a dishonest cop -- a crooked cop [McCluskey] who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was coming to him
Nothing nefarious! about the Corleones

Quote
Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man --
(then, after Kay laughs) -- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Capri] #1093186
06/27/24 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Capri
Originally Posted by Trojan
McCluskey the untouchable New York Police captain

It is fleshed out in the novel that McCluskey never expected Michael was going to kill him too
He was waiting for Michael to surrender

I frisked him -- he's clean. I've frisked a thousand young punks... 1,001 bang! bang! lol
Good one Capri That is Funny

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1093194
06/27/24 04:29 AM
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I try smile

Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Quote
Michael: I'm talking about ah - ah - a dishonest cop -- a crooked cop [McCluskey] who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was coming to him
Nothing nefarious! about the Corleones

Quote
Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man --
(then, after Kay laughs) -- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president

Michael: I have never been arrested or indicted for any crime what-so-ever. That no proof linking me to any criminal conspiracy whether it is called "Mafia" or "Cosa Nostra" or whatever other name you wish to give has ever been made public. I have not taken refuge behind the 5th amendment as it was my right to do. I challenge this committee -- to produce any witness or evidence against. And if it do not, I hope they will have the decency to clear my name with the same publicity with which they have now besmirched it.

Oh -- who's being naïve and Lying to themselves

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1093504
06/30/24 06:38 PM
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Quote
Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man --
(then, after Kay laughs) -- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president

Kay: You know how naïve you sound?
Michael: Why?
Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed...
Michael: Oh -- who's being naïve, Kay?

Re: Under / Over estimating / Lying to themselves [Re: Trojan] #1093568
07/02/24 01:33 AM
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She got in the car Married him

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