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Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105377
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
There seems to be a broad consensus about the war in Gaza, structured around two propositions after the attacks of October 7, 2023
1. First - Israel has the right to defend itself and defeat Hamas
2. Second - the way Israel is doing this is “over the top”

The vast numbers of dead and starving children are gut wrenching, the devastation is overwhelming and it’s hard not to see it all as indiscriminate which leads to an obvious question:
1. If the current Israeli military approach is inhumane, what’s the alternative?
2. Is there a better military strategy Israel can use to defeat Hamas without a civilian blood bath?

  • Israel’s approach to the conflict
The thorniest reality that comes up is that this war is like few others because the crucial theater is underground

  • Hamas' Tunnels
Before the war, Israelis estimated Hamas had dug around 100 miles of tunnels
Hamas leaders claimed they had a much more expansive network and it turns out they were telling the truth
The current Israeli estimates range from 350 to about 500 miles of tunnels

The tunnel network, according to Israel, is where,
1. Hamas lives,
2. holds hostages,
3. stores weapons,
4. builds missiles
5. and moves from place to place

  • Where did the money come from? -- estimate a billion dollars
By some Israeli estimates, building these tunnels cost the Gazan people about a billion dollars, which could have gone to building schools and starting companies.

Hamas built many of its most important military and strategic facilities under hospitals, schools and so on
Its server farm, for example, was built under the offices of the UN relief agency in Gaza City, according to the Israeli military

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105378
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • “Underground Warfare”
Daphne Richemond-Barak, the author of “Underground Warfare” writes in Foreign Policy magazine:
Quote
“Never in the history of tunnel warfare has a defender been able to spend months in such confined spaces

The digging itself, the innovative ways Hamas has made use of the tunnels and the group’s survival underground for this long have been unprecedented”

  • Underground Hamas vs above ground Israel -- In other words, in this war,
    1. Hamas is often underground, the Israelis are often above ground
    2. and Hamas seeks to position civilians directly between them

As Barry Posen, a professor at the security studies program at M.I.T. has written,
Quote
  • Hamas’ strategy
“Hamas’s strategy could be described as ‘human camouflage’ and more ruthlessly as ‘human ammunition’

  • Hamas’ goal
Hamas’s goal is to maximize the number of Palestinians who die and in that way build international pressure until Israel is forced to end the war before Hamas is wiped out

  • Hamas’ survival
Hamas’s survival depends on support in the court of international opinion and on making this war as bloody as possible for civilians until Israel relents

The Israelis have not found an easy way to clear and destroy the tunnels

Richemond-Barak writes, currently, Israel Defense Forces units IDF
1. clear the ground around a tunnel entrance
2. and then they send in robots, drones and dogs to detect explosives and enemy combatants
3. Then units trained in underground warfare pour in
Quote
“It has become clear that Israel cannot possibly detect or map the entirety of Hamas’s tunnel network"

For Israel to persuasively declare victory, in Richemond-Barak's view,
Quote
"Israel must destroy at least two-thirds of Hamas’s known underground infrastructure”

This is slow, dangerous and destructive work

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105379
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • Israel's destruction of Gaza
Israel rained destruction down on Gaza, especially early in the war because very few buildings can withstand gigantic explosions beneath them, this method involves a lot of wreckage, compounding the damage brought by tens of thousands of airstrikes

In part because of the tunnels, Israel has caused more destruction in Gaza than Syria did in Aleppo and more than Russia did in Mariupol, according to an Associated Press analysis

John Spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there. Spencer said,
Quote
”Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq”

Spencer reports, Israel
  • has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave
  • has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations
  • has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas
  • has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go
  • These measures, have telegraphed where the IDF is going [heads up! for terrorists Hamas] to move next
  • These measures, to be honest “have prolonged the war"

These measures are real but in addition....

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105380
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
John Spencer, the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, said,
Quote
”Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq”

  • These measures are real but in addition.... Israel has,
    1. cut off power in Gaza,
    2. making it hard for Palestinians to gain access to their phones and information
    3. and most important, the evacuation orders published by Israel
    4. Israel has also destroyed a vast majority of Gaza’s cellphone towers
    5. and on occasion bombed civilians in so-called safe areas and safe routes

Quote
For civilians, the urban battlefield is unbelievably nightmarish
They are caught between a nation enraged by October 7, 2023 and using overwhelming and often reckless force and a terrorist group that has structured the battlefield to maximize the number of innocent dead

So to step back: What do we make of the current Israeli strategy?
  • Judged purely on a tactical level, there’s a strong argument that the IDF has been remarkably effective against Hamas forces
  • IDF claims to have killed over 13,000 of the roughly 30,000 Hamas troops
  • IDF has disrupted three-quarters of Hamas’s battalions so that they are no longer effective fighting units
  • IDF has also killed two of five brigade commanders and 19 of 24 battalion commanders
  • As of January 2024 US officials estimated that Israel had damaged or made inoperable 20 to 40 percent of the tunnels

Many Israelis believe the aggressive onslaught has begun to restore Israel’s deterrent power

(Readers should know that Brooks' son served in the IDF from 2014 to 2016; He’s been back home in the States since then)

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105381
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • Israeli strategy
But on a larger political and strategic level, we’d have to conclude that the Israeli strategy has real problems

Global public opinion is moving decisively against Israel. Furthermore, Israeli tactics may,
1. be reducing Gaza to an ungovernable hellscape that will require further Israeli occupation
2. and produce more terrorist groups for years

  • Hamas' strategy
Hamas’s strategy is pure evil but it is based on an understanding of how the events on the ground will play out in the political world
As the leaders of Hamas watch Israeli allies grow more critical of Jerusalem, they must know their strategy is working

Quote
The key weakness of the Israeli strategy has always been that it is aimed at defeating Hamas militarily without addressing Palestinian grievances and without paying enough attention to the wider consequences

So we’re back to the original question:
1. Is there a way to defeat Hamas with far fewer civilian deaths?
2. Is there a way to fight the war that won’t leave Israel isolated?

So where are we?
Quote
The tragic conclusion there is no magical alternative military strategy

As Raphael Cohen, the director of the strategy and doctrine program at the RAND Corporation, wrote in Foreign Policy:
Quote
“If the international community wants Israel to change strategies in Gaza then it should offer a viable alternative strategy to Israel’s announced goal of destroying Hamas in the strip

And right now, that alternate strategy simply does not exist”

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105382
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • postwar political process

As the veteran Middle East observers Robert Satloff and Dennis Ross wrote in American Purpose
Quote
“Any talk of a postwar political process is meaningless without Israel battlefield success:

There can be no serious discussion of a two-state solution or any other political objective with Hamas either still governing Gaza or commanding a coherent military force”

Finally, like pretty much every expert I, [Brooks] consulted, I’m also left with the conclusion that Israel has to completely rethink and change the humanitarian and political side of this operation

Quote
Israel needs to supplement its military strategy with an equally powerful Palestinian welfare strategy

  • Israel’s core problems
Israel’s core problems today are not mostly the fault of the IDF or its self-defense strategy

Israel’s core problems flow from the growing callousness with which many of its people have viewed the Palestinians over the past decades, magnified exponentially by the trauma it has just suffered

Today, an emotionally shattered Israeli people see through the prism of October 7, 2023
Quote
They feel existentially insecure, facing enemies on seven fronts — Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Iran

As Ross has noted, many often don’t see a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinians
Over 80 percent of West Bank Palestinians told pollsters they supported the October 7

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105383
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
As the columnist Anshel Pfeffer wrote in the Israeli paper Haaretz,
Quote
“The very idea that Israel needed to take any responsibility whatsoever for the place from which those who had murdered, raped and pillaged had emerged was seen as a moral abomination”

Pfeffer continued,
Quote
because of this moral abomination attitude,
“the government’s policy on humanitarian supplies to Gaza is a combination of vengeance, ignorance and incompetence”

Pfeffer quoted unnamed IDF officials who acknowledged that of course Israel is responsible for the welfare of the people in the area it controls but that the civilian leaders refuse to confront this

On occasions when Israel has responded to world pressure and shifted policy, it has done so in secret, with no discussion in the cabinet

An officer whose duties specifically include addressing the needs of civilians told Pfeffer that
Quote
he didn’t have much to do except for some odd jobs

  • Israel is failing to lay the groundwork for some sort of better Palestinian future — to its own detriment

The security experts I, [Brooks] spoke with acknowledge that providing humanitarian aid will be hard

Raphael Cohen, the director of the strategy and doctrine program at the RAND Corporation said,
Quote
“If the Israeli military takes over distributing humanitarian aid to Gaza, they will likely lose soldiers in the process
Quote
And so Israelis are asking why should their boys die providing aid to someone who wants to kill them
So the United States needs to convince Israel that this is the morally and strategically right thing to do”

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105384
11/19/24 12:02 AM
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What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?
The New York Times Opinion by David Brooks March 24, 2024

Old article but most still ring true, in this terror war.... including regarding Hezbollah

Extracts:
  • Defeating terorrism

For her book “How Terrorism Ends” the Carnegie Mellon scholar Audrey Kurth Cronin looked at about 460 terrorist groups to investigate how they were defeated,
1. Trying to beat them with military force alone rarely works
2. The root causes have to be addressed

As the retired general David Petraeus reminded his audience recently at the New Orleans Book Festival,
Quote
“Over time, hearts and minds still matter”

  • Israel also has to offer the world, a vision for Gaza’s recovery and it has to do it right now

the veteran Middle East observer Dennis Ross argues,
Quote
after the war is over, the core logic of the peace has to be demilitarization in exchange for reconstruction

In an essay in Foreign Affairs, Ross sketches out a comprehensive rebuilding effort, bringing in nations and agencies from all over the world, so Gaza doesn’t become a failed state or remain under Hamas control

  • vicious enmity
Is any of this realistic given the vicious enmity now ripping through the region?
Well, many peace breakthroughs of the past decades happened after one side suffered a crushing defeat

Egypt established ties with Israel after it was thoroughly defeated in the Yom Kippur War

When Israel attacked Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006 the world was outraged
But after the fighting stopped, some Lebanese concluded that Hezbollah had dragged them into a bloody, unnecessary conflict

The Hezbollah leader [now deceased] Hassan Nasrallah, was forced to acknowledge his error, saying,
Quote
"I didn’t know Israel would react so violently"
-- Yet? Hamas did the same 17 years later, October 2023 resulting in the current bloody conflict
The Lebanese border stabilized

Israel’s over-the-top responses have sometimes served as effective deterrents and prevented further bloodshed

  • Israel and the Palestinians have both just suffered shattering defeats

Maybe in the next few years,
1. they will do some difficult rethinking and a new vision of the future will come into view
2. But that can happen only after Hamas is fully defeated as a military and governing force

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105476
11/20/24 05:38 AM
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Hezbollah: Ceasefire with Israel must end violence

A possible ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel should mean a quick end to the fighting and also preserve Lebanon's sovereignty, a senior leader within Hezbollah said on the organization's television channel. There is a proposal for a ceasefire, but Mahmoud Qmati said he thinks it could still go either way.

The proposal was brokered by the US. Lebanon and Iranian-backed Hezbollah have basically agreed, according to sources, but Israel has not. Qmati's comments on the proposal seem to refer to Israel's intention to continue attacking Hezbollah, even if there is a ceasefire. He says he is not overly optimistic, but he is also not pessimistic that it will work.

The French foreign minister, in an interview with Europe 1, called on both parties to agree to the agreement. "This is an opportunity to establish a lasting truce in Lebanon, which will allow the return of refugees and guarantee the sovereignty of Lebanon and the security of Israel," said Jean-Noël Barrot. Lebanon was previously under French rule.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105479
11/20/24 07:06 AM
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In the absence of a result from negotiations, Netanyahu offers 4.7 million euros per released hostage
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu promises Gazans the equivalent of 4.7 million euros if they hand over an Israeli hostage, as well as safe passage out of Gaza. With this offer, Netanyahu is making a desperate attempt to persuade Palestinian fighters to come forward.

The prime minister made his remarkable proposal on Tuesday during a visit to Gaza, where he vowed that Hamas would never return to government. Earlier, Netanyahu had hinted that Israel might be prepared to pay millions for the return of the hostages.

The Israeli army believes that 97 hostages are still being held in Gaza by Hamas and the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Of them, 34 are believed to be dead. Last year, on October 7, 251 civilians and soldiers were kidnapped and taken to Gaza. Of them, 105 were released in a deal and a few were rescued during rescue operations.

"Whoever brings us a hostage will find a safe way out for himself and his family," Netanyahu said in an attempt to persuade fighters and civilians in Gaza to come forward. "We will also give $5 million for each hostage. Choose, the choice is yours, but the result will be the same. We will bring them all back."

At the same time, he threatened Palestinians holding hostages. 'Whoever dares to harm our hostages will pay a price. We will pursue you and we will get you.'

Dead end
The prime minister made his multi-million dollar offer while negotiations with Hamas on a ceasefire and the release of the hostages are still at a dead end. Netanyahu is being fiercely criticized by families of the hostages, among others. They say he would block an agreement.

Hamas demands not only a ceasefire but also a complete withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza. Netanyahu wants nothing to do with the latter; the official war goal is that Hamas must be completely destroyed, so that it can never again threaten Israel militarily.

The prime minister stressed during his visit to the Netzarim corridor, which divides Gaza from west to east, that the Israeli army is doing everything it can to find the hostages. "We are not giving up," Netanyahu said. "We will continue to do this until we capture all of them, both the living and the dead."

'Hamas will no longer be in Gaza'
At the same time, he stressed that Israel's goal is to prevent Hamas from returning to power in Gaza. 'We are impressively destroying their military capabilities and we are now continuing to destroy their ability to govern. We are not finished yet. Hamas will no longer be in Gaza.'


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Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105483
11/20/24 09:57 AM
11/20/24 09:57 AM
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Over Here < < in TX
U talkin' da me ?? Offline
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Israeli attack on Iraq ‘imminent’ if Baghdad fails to rein in Iran-backed militias — report

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-to-rein-in-iran-backed-militias-report/



"It's nothing personal, Sonny....... It's strictly business."


Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105524
11/20/24 06:48 PM
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From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
Turkiye condemns Houthi strike on Red Sea vessel

The Turkish Foreign Ministry has released a statement following a Houthi strike on a cargo ship in the Red Sea, where the Yemen-based group has targeted shipping in what it says is a campaign of solidarity with Gaza.

“We condemn the missile attacks by the Houthis on the Panama-flagged dry cargo ship Anadolu S, owned by a Turkish company, while sailing off the coast of Yemen,” Turkiye’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

“Necessary initiatives are being taken to prevent the recurrence of a similar incident,” it added.

How dare they? Have they forgotten that Turkiye is one of them, with them?
and the hypocrisy of NATO member Turkiye beggars belief indeed

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105525
11/20/24 06:53 PM
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From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
US defends veto of UN Security Council resolution on Gaza ceasefire

The State Department has defended the US veto of a UN Security Council resolution on a Gaza ceasefire.

“The resolution does call for the release of hostagesWhat it doesn’t do is link the release of hostages to an immediate, unconditional ceasefire,” spokesperson Matthew Miller said during a news briefing.

Its fellow members, all of whom voted for the resolution, roundly criticised the US for blocking the measure put forward by the council’s 10 elected members.

France’s ambassador, Nicolas de Riviere, said the resolution “very firmly” required the release of captives.

After blocking earlier resolutions on Gaza, Washington in March abstained from a vote that allowed a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire to pass.

The glaring problem with these numerous One-sided, flawed resolutions is fundamentally no one is offering alternate solution for this painfully difficult horrors of this kind of tunnel-based urban warfare because there isn't any -- "alternate strategy simply does not exist”

The war in Ukraine is a conventional conflict pitting two states against each other while the Israel War pits a conventional military against the Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and some -- backed “Axis of Resistance” terror of their terrorist proxies

Why is no one calling for Russia-Ukraine ceasefire and Why is Israel not questioning the double standards and hypocrisy of all these holier-than-thou righteous One-sided critics of Israel but the terrorists can keep raining their guerilla warfare terror

Russia, one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council calling for ceasefire while invading and still warring with Ukraine over 1,000 days, speaks volumes of the ?United? antisemitism Nations -- Yes! Sir, Yes! Sir Three bags full....

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105547
11/20/24 07:25 PM
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For Netanyahu, a second Trump term promises a renewed alignment on Middle Eastern policy, but the incoming president also has strong relations with Saudi-Arabia, the Abraham accords have to be implemented.

Last edited by Hollander; 11/20/24 07:26 PM.

"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105579
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Originally Posted by Trojan
Originally Posted by Hollander
Don't forget the Saudis and Iraelis were VERY close to a historic peace agreement.
It was touted as Israel on the cusp of historic peace with Saudi Arabia but stalled after October 7, 2023
Originally Posted by Hollander
For Netanyahu, a second Trump term promises a renewed alignment on Middle Eastern policy, but the incoming president also has strong relations with Saudi-Arabia, the Abraham accords have to be implemented.

  • Israel-Saudi Arabia historic peace
Biden was this close -- oh, so close....

  • ceasefire
Biden administration-led negotiations for a ceasefire and hostage deal have repeatedly failed

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105580
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Sure thing Netanyahu acts like Trump is Israel's Messiah but Trump seems to be still smarting over Netanyahu congratulating Biden when Trump was disputing the 2020 election

Trump accuses Netanyahu of disloyalty:
CNN by Andrew Carey and Amir Tal 11 December 2021

  • Trump-Netanyahu -- Old bad blood!
Extracts:
Trump accuses Netanyahu of disloyalty for congratulating Biden after 2020 win: ‘F**k him’

Former President Donald Trump railed against his one-time close ally Benjamin Netanyahu in a new interview series, saying Trump felt betrayed by the then-prime minister of Israel’s video message to Joe Biden congratulating him on winning the presidency

Trump told Israeli journalist Barak Ravid during an April interview which was published by Axios Friday
Quote
“It was early OK? Let’s put it this way – Netanyahu greeted Biden very early”
Earlier than most world leaders. I’ve not spoken to him since F**k him”

Discussing Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel – upending decades of US policy and international consensus – as well as recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Golan Heights, captured from Syria during a war in 1967 Trump laid out why he felt so embittered

Quote
“There was no one who did more for Netanyahu than me There was no one who did for Israel more than I did
Quote
And the first person to run to greet Joe Biden was Netanyahu
And not only did Netanyahu congratulate him – he did it in a video
If you look at the leaders of other countries – like Brazil – he waited months, Putin. Many other leaders Mexico
Quote
All of them also felt that the election was over But they, too, were waiting
Quote
No one did more than me for Bibi Money too. We gave them a lot of money and gave them soldiers
We did everything”

Netanyahu did post his congratulations on Twitter and in a video on November 8, 2020 the day after the race had been called in Biden’s favor

Netanyahu said in that post, he and Biden have had a “long & warm” personal relationship for almost 40 years and sees him as “a great friend of Israel” and looks forward to working together

In a separate Twitter post, Netanyahu thanked Trump
Quote
“for the friendship you have shown the state of Israel and me personally, for recognizing Jerusalem and the Golan, for standing up to Iran, for the historic peace accords and for bringing the American-Israeli alliance to unprecedented heights”

Despite posting his congratulations online, Netanyahu was slow to call Biden after the election, waiting two weeks to call the
President-elect which drew criticism from some in Israel

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105581
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Trump's pro-Israel cabinet picks upset Muslims who voted for him
Reuters by Andrea Shalal 17 November 2024

  • Muslims who voted for Trump -- Upset

Extracts:
US Muslim leaders who supported Republican Donald Trump to protest against the Biden administration's support for Israel's war on Gaza and attacks on Lebanon have been deeply disappointed by his cabinet picks, they tell Reuters

Rabiul Chowdhury, a Philadelphia investor who chaired the “Abandon Harris” campaign in Pennsylvania and co-founded Muslims for Trump said,
Quote
"Trump won because of us and we're not happy with his secretary of state pick and others"

Strategists believe, Muslim support for Trump helped him win Michigan and may have factored into other swing state wins

  • Marco Rubio
Trump picked Republican senator Marco Rubio, a staunch supporter of Israel, for Secretary of State
Earlier this year, Rubio said, he would not call for a ceasefire in Gaza and that he believed,
Quote
Israel should destroy "every element" of Hamas "These people are vicious animals"

  • Mike Huckabee
Trump also nominated Mike Huckabee, a former Arkansas governor as the next ambassador to Israel
Huckabee is a staunch pro-Israel conservative who backs Israeli occupation of the West Bank and has called,
Quote
a two state solution in Palestine "unworkable"

  • Elise Stefanik
Trump has picked Republican Representative Elise Stefanik to serve as US ambassador to the United Nations
Stefanik called the UN for its condemnation of deaths in Gaza,
Quote
a "cesspool of antisemitism"

Rexhinaldo Nazarko, executive director of the American Muslim Engagement and Empowerment Network (AMEEN) said Muslim voters had hoped Trump would choose cabinet officials who work toward peace and there was no sign of that

Nazarko said
Quote
"We are very disappointed"

"It seems like this administration has been packed entirely with neoconservatives and extremely pro-Israel, pro-war people which is a failure on the side of President Trump, to the pro-peace and anti-war movement"

Nazarko added the community would continue pressing to make its voices heard about ending the war in Gaza
Quote
"At least we're on the map"

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105582
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Trump's pro-Israel cabinet picks upset Muslims who voted for him
Reuters by Andrea Shalal 17 November 2024

Extracts:
Hassan Abdel Salam, a former professor at the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities and co-founder of the “Abandon Harris” campaign which endorsed Green Party candidate Jill Stein said,
Quote
Trump's staffing plans were not surprising but had proven even more extreme than he had feared

Salam added,
Quote
"It's like he's going on Zionist overdrive" "We were always extremely skeptical ...
Obviously we're still waiting to see where the administration will go but it does look like our community has been played"

The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to an email seeking comment

Richard Grenell:
Several Muslim and Arab supporters of Trump said they hoped Richard Grenell, Trump's former acting director of national intelligence, would play a key role after he led months of outreach to Muslim and Arab American communities and was even introduced as a potential next secretary of state at events

Massad Boulos:
Another key Trump ally, Massad Boulos, the Lebanese father-in-law of Trump's daughter Tiffany, met repeatedly with Arab American and Muslim leaders

Both promised Arab American and Muslim voters that Trump was a candidate for peace who would act swiftly to end the wars in the Middle East and beyond Neither was immediately reachable

Trump made several visits to cities with large Arab American and Muslim populations, include a stop in Dearborn, a majority Arab city, where Trump said he loved Muslims and Pittsburgh, where he called Muslims for Trump "a beautiful movement
Quote
“They want peace They want stability"

Bill Bazzi, mayor of neighboring Dearborn Heights, who endorsed Trump, said he met the president-elect three times and still believed he would work to end the war, despite the cabinet appointments

Rola Makki, the Lebanese American, Muslim vice chair for outreach of the Michigan Republican Party, agreed
Quote
"I don't think everyone's going to be happy with every appointment Trump makes but the outcome is what matters"

"I do know that Trump wants peace and what people need to realize is that there's 50,000 dead Palestinians and 3,000 dead Lebanese and that's happened during the current administration"

*Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Editing by Peter Graff and Clarence Fernandez

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105583
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US Senate rejects Bernie Sanders effort to block arms sales to Israel
The Guardian by Erum Salam and agencies 21 November 2024

Three resolutions - all failed

Extracts:
  • $20billion in US weapons to Israel
Moves to advance three resolutions, which would have halted recent sale of $20billion in US weapons to Israel, all failed

The US Senate has blocked legislation that would have halted the sale of some US weapons to Israel, which had been introduced out of concern about the human rights catastrophe faced by Palestinians in Gaza

Senator Bernie Sanders had introduced what are called joint resolutions of disapproval, seeking to block the Biden administration’s recent sale of $20bn in US weapons to Israel

Moves to advance three resolutions all failed, garnering only about 20 votes out of the chamber’s 100 members, with most Democrats joining all Republicans against the measures

  • US mortar rounds and a GPS guidance system for bombs
Two other resolutions to stop shipments of mortar rounds and a GPS guidance system for bombs

US Senate votes down effort to withhold weapons to Israel
Al Jazeera by Ali Harb 21 November 2024

Extracts:
It was the first time ever that a weapons sale to Israel was subjected to such a vote
While support for the push may appear minimal, it represents a crack in the bipartisan consensus over unconditional US aid to Israel

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105586
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Originally Posted by Hollander
For Netanyahu, a second Trump term promises a renewed alignment on Middle Eastern policy, but the incoming president also has strong relations with Saudi-Arabia, the Abraham accords have to be implemented.

CNN November 15, 2024
Jared Kushner expected to be pivotal to Trump admin’s Middle East efforts without taking a formal job

Both Kushner and Trump would like to see a continuation of efforts to normalize relations between Israel and other Arab states following the Abraham Accords, a pact which normalized relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates during Trump’s first term – an effort made much more complicated given the ongoing wars in Gaza and Lebanon.

Kushner has also maintained relationships with key players in the Middle East, including Israeli officials and leaders in the Arab Gulf.
In particular, he has remained in contact with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the kingdom’s de facto leader.

Trump spoke last week with bin Salman following his election victory.
It was his second call to the region following his conversation with Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, an indication that he will prioritize the US-Saudi relationship.

Both Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, who Trump picked as the next ambassador to Israel, and Steve Witkoff, who will lead the overall regional efforts, come to the job with relationships of their own.

Yet how they work together – and with Kushner – remains an open question.

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105587
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But Kushner’s potential involvement this time comes with a new complicating layer:
in recent years his fund received $2 billion in funding from Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. That economic relationship will heighten scrutiny on Kushner’s involvement.

Some US diplomats are already concerned about Trump possibly pursuing a path prioritizing his family’s financial interests over the national interest.

“Prioritizing Saudi Arabia’s prosperity because it could help the Trump family is a major concern for US diplomats,” said a current US diplomat, who remembers the secrecy surrounding Kushner’s engagements during the first term which in and of themselves created confusion.

Yet deploying Kushner might be seen as necessary out of the gates if Trump is to move as quickly as he has promised to end the wars in the region. Earlier this year, Trump said that Israel had to “finish what they started” in Gaza and “get it over with fast.”

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Trojan] #1105588
11/21/24 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Trojan
Why is no one calling for Russia-Ukraine ceasefire and Why is Israel not questioning the double standards and hypocrisy of all these holier-than-thou righteous One-sided critics of Israel but the terrorists can keep raining their guerilla warfare terror

Russia, one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council calling for ceasefire while invading and still warring with Ukraine over 1,000 days, speaks volumes of the ?United? antisemitism Nations -- Yes! Sir, Yes! Sir Three bags full....

Al Jazeera November 19, 2024
Ukraine dominated the agenda on day one of the two-day summit after Washington gave Kyiv the green light to strike Russian territory with long-range missiles supplied by the US.

In their final declaration, G20 leaders eked out a narrow consensus on Ukraine, welcoming “all relevant and constructive initiatives that support a comprehensive, just, and durable peace”, while again condemning the “threat or use of force to seek territorial acquisition”.

It, however, made no mention of Russian aggression.

With an International Criminal Court arrest warrant obliging member states to arrest him, Russian President Vladimir Putin was not in attendance. Instead, Russia was represented by Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105589
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Anadolu Agency Ankara, Türkiye November 17, 2024
Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Saar on Sunday called a draft declaration of the Group of 20 meeting of top economies on its deadly war on the Gaza Strip “unbalanced and biased.”

In a statement on his X account, Saar said the final statement of the G20 summit must recognize what he called Israel’s right to defend itself and condemn Palestinian resistance group Hamas and Lebanese movement Hezbollah.

Al Jazeera November 19, 2024
Leaders of the Group of 20 major economies have called for “comprehensive” ceasefires in Gaza and Lebanon, urging a permanent halt to fighting in return for the release of all captives held by Hamas.

Their statement expressed “deep concern about the catastrophic humanitarian situation” in the Palestinian enclave.

It also expressed concern over the “escalation in Lebanon” and called for a ceasefire enabling “citizens to return safely to their homes on both sides of the Blue Line”, a demarcation line dividing Lebanon from Israel and the occupied Golan Heights.

As always, presented no “comprehensive” plan how to -- just continuous “unbalanced and biased.” toward Israel

If the international community wants “comprehensive” ceasefires then it should offer a viable “comprehensive” plan to achieve it. Plan never offered because it simply does not exist

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105626
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Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant over alleged war crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2exvx944o


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105631
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Originally Posted by Hollander
Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant over alleged war crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2exvx944o



NOS News

today, 13:56

Amendedtoday, 14:24

Veldkamp: We will arrest Netanyahu if he is in the Netherlands

The Netherlands respects the decision of the International Criminal Court (ICC) to issue an arrest warrant for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu. If he comes to Dutch soil, he will be arrested, Foreign Minister Veldkamp said in the House of Representatives.

The Netherlands will also no longer establish 'non-essential' contacts with Netanyahu. The same applies to former Israeli Defense Minister Gallant and Hamas leader al-Masri, also known as Deif. Arrest warrants have been issued against them as well .

"The Netherlands implements the Rome Statute 100 percent," the minister said. That statute regulates the establishment of the ICC, based in The Hague, and how its rulings are dealt with.

The chances seem slim that Netanyahu or any of the other suspects will indeed set foot on Dutch soil in the short term. Veldkamp does plan to visit the Middle East soon.

Wilders to Israel
PVV leader Wilders also wants to travel to Israel next month, including to visit the illegal Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories. Veldkamp believes that this visit is at odds with government policy. But he cannot tell members of parliament what they can or cannot do.

It is still unclear what the consequences of the ICC ruling will be for the planned visits by Veldkamp and Wilders. In the debate on the budget of his ministry, Veldkamp emphasized that there is a difference between essential and non-essential contacts, although it is not clear where exactly the boundary lies. If an essential conversation is necessary, he will first discuss it in the Council of Ministers.

Left-wing opposition parties find it unacceptable that Veldkamp, ??or other members of the Dutch cabinet, should still shake hands with the Israeli Prime Minister.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105633
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Where and over whom does the ICC have jurisdiction?
From CNN Staff
The International Criminal Court building is seen in The Hague, Netherlands in January 2019.

Israel does not recognize the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court as it hasn’t signed the Rome Statute, which established the court. But that doesn’t mean its citizens cannot be prosecuted by the court.

The court had already been investigating possible crimes committed by Israel since 2014 in Gaza, the occupied West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem. The investigation began in March 2021, and was referred to the court by the Palestinian Authority, which adopted the ICC’s mandate in 2015 as the State of Palestine. The ICC concluded then that it has jurisdiction on the conflict and, “by majority, that the territorial scope of this jurisdiction extends to Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.”

Netanyahu in May said that issuing arrest warrants for Israeli officials would leave an “indelible stain” on the edifice of international law and justice, adding that the ICC was “founded as a consequence of the Holocaust” and should not attempt to “undermine” Israel’s fundamental right to self-defense.

Palestinian leaders have signed up to the Rome Statute in 2015. As such, the ICC has jurisdiction over actors in Gaza and other Palestinian territories and by extension, over actors in those territories, including Hamas.


"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1105666
11/21/24 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Again, there is no equivalence between Democratic Israel and murderous terrorists

From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
World reacts to ICC arrest warrants for Israel’s Netanyahu, Gallant

The ICC said it had found ‘reasonable grounds’ to believe that the Israeli officials were responsible for starvation in Gaza.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defence Minister Yoav Gallant for alleged “war crimes”.

The court said on Thursday that there were “reasonable grounds” to believe Netanyahu and Gallant “intentionally and knowingly deprived the civilian population in Gaza of objects indispensable to their survival”.

Since the decision was announced, Israeli officials have slammed the warrants, with Israeli Transportation Minister Miri Regev referring to them as “modern anti-Semitism in the guise of justice”.

Israel
Netanyahu’s office rejected the decision and described the move as “anti-Semitic” in a statement.

“Israel rejects with disgust the absurd and false actions levelled against it by ICC,” his office said, adding Israel won’t “give in to pressure” in defence of its citizens.

In separate comments, Netanyahu’s office said the decision was comparable to “the modern-day Dreyfus trial – and it will end in the same way,” referring to Alfred Dreyfus, a Jewish army captain who was wrongly convicted of treason in France.

Hamas
The group welcomed the decision to issue arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant, calling it an “important step towards justice”.

“[It’s] an important step towards justice and can lead to redress for the victims in general, but it remains limited and symbolic if it is not supported by all means by all countries around the world,” Hamas political bureau member Basem Naim said in a statement.

Hamas also called on the ICC to expand its scope to other Israeli officials.

The group did not mention the warrant for 'slain' Deif.

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105676
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US and Israel reject ICC warrant for Netanyahu’s arrest as number of countries signal they will abide by it

With allies like these -- in particular Canada, EU, The Netherlands... Why in such a hurry?

From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
Jordan
Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi said the ICC’s decision must be respected and implemented. “Palestinians deserve justice,” he said.

United States
The White House said Washington “fundamentally rejects” the ICC decision, adding that they are “deeply concerned by the Prosecutor’s rush to seek arrest warrants and the troubling process errors that led to this decision”.

“The United States has been clear that the ICC does not have jurisdiction over this matter,” a National Security Council spokesperson said.

Canada
“It’s really important that everyone abide by international law,” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said, adding Canada would abide by rulings of international courts.

South Africa
In a statement, the government welcomed the ICC decision and said it marked a “significant step towards justice for crimes against humanity and war crimes in Palestine”.

“South Africa reaffirms its commitment to international law and urges all state parties to act in accordance with their obligations in the Rome Statute,” it said. “We call on the global community to uphold the rule of law and ensure accountability for human rights violations.”

European Union
Foreign Policy chief Josep Borrell said the ICC warrants were not political and should be respected and implemented.

“This decision is a binding decision and all states, all state parties of the court, which include all members of the European Union, are binding to implement this court decision,” he said.

The Netherlands
Foreign Minister Caspar Veldkamp said that his country “respects the independence of the ICC”.

“We won’t engage in non-essential contacts and we will act on the arrest warrants.
We fully comply with the Rome Statute of the ICC,” he added.

France
The Foreign Ministry’s spokesperson, Christophe Lemoine, said that France would act “in line with the ICC’s statutes”.
However, Lemoine declined to say whether France would arrest Netanyahu if he came to the country, saying it was “legally complex”.

Norway
Foreign Minister Espen Barth Eide said, “It is important that the ICC carries out its mandate in a judicious manner.
I have confidence that the court will proceed with the case based on the highest fair trial standards.”

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105677
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US and Israel reject ICC warrant for Netanyahu’s arrest as number of countries signal they will abide by it

From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
Ireland
Prime Minister Simon Harris said the warrants “an extremely significant step”.
He added that Ireland respects the ICC’s role and that anyone in a position to assist it in carrying out its vital work must do so “with urgency.”

Italy
Italy’s Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani said Rome would consider with allies how to interpret the decision and act together.
“We support the ICC … the court must play a legal role and not a political role,” he added.

Sweden
Swedish Foreign Minister Maria Malmer Stenergard said Sweden and the EU “support the court’s important work and protect its independence and integrity”. Swedish law enforcement authorities decide on the arrest of subjects of ICC warrants on Swedish territory, she added.

Hungary
Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto condemned the ICC decision, calling it “shameful and absurd”, presidential spokesperson Zoltan Kovacs reported on X.

“This decision disgraces the international judiciary by equating leaders of a country attacked by a heinous terror attack with the leaders of the terrorist organization responsible,” Szijjarto said, adding, “Such a decision is unacceptable.”

United Kingdom
Britain respects the independence of the ICC, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Keir Starmer said without confirming whether Britain would uphold the warrants.

Austria
Austrian Foreign Minister Alexander Schallenberg called the warrant incomprehensible and ludicrous, but Schallenberg’s office also said as a party to the Rome statutes Austria was obliged to implement ICC arrest warrants.

Switzerland
The Swiss Federal Office of Justice said it is obliged to cooperate with the ICC under the Rome Statute and would therefore have to arrest Netanyahu, Gallant or Masri if they entered Switzerland and initiate extradition to the court.

Argentina
President Javier Milei said on X that his country “declares its deep disagreement” with the decision.
He wrote that the warrant “ignores Israel’s legitimate right to self- defence against the constant attacks by terrorist organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah”.

Turkey
Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan said the ICC arrest warrant was a “hopeful” and crucial step in bringing to justice Israeli authorities who committed “genocide” against Palestinians. “We will continue to work to ensure that international law is implemented to punish genocide,” Fidan added.

Re: Israel: 'State of war' [Re: Hollander] #1105678
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From: Al Jazeera November 21, 2024
People in Gaza
Reporting from Deir el-Balah in central Gaza, Al Jazeera’s Hani Mahmoud said that residents remained sceptical.
“It is taken with a little bit of scepticism… again, we know the unwavering American support [for Israel],” he said.

“So people are very suspicious of the outcome of this arrest warrant and say that it might be challenged by the US administration, whether it is the [current] one or the [incoming administration], which has also vowed support to Israeli officials.”

Palestinian Authority
The Palestinian Authority, which governs the occupied West Bank, said “the ICC’s decision represents hope and confidence in international law and its institutions”.

It urged ICC members to enforce “a policy of severing contact and meetings’ with Netanyahu and Gallant.

Amnesty International
The human rights organisation said on X that the “wheels of international justice have finally caught up with those alleged to be responsible for war crimes & crimes against humanity in Palestine and Israel”.

“There can be no ‘safe haven’ for those alleged to have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity,” it added.

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