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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114334
02/10/25 06:43 PM
02/10/25 06:43 PM
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Trojan
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From: Al Jazeera February 10, 2025
Confusion: There was not much detail in Trump’s remarks.
He did not say: 1. if he was advocating for trashing the decades-old US policy of seeking a two-state solution for Palestine, 2. if he was suggesting a temporary ethnic cleansing of Gaza, 3. or how his idea sat within the painstakingly negotiated three-phase ceasefire agreement.
Reporting from The Times and other outlets has suggested that: 1. large parts of Trump’s announcement appear to have been made without the prior consultation of aides or allies, 2. accounting for much of the international backlash from states unaware of his proposals, 3. and the swift caveating of the President’s plan by Secretary of State Marco Rubio and White House Spokesperson Karoline Leavitt, who clarified that: 1. the president’s proposals were temporary 2. and did not represent a US military commitment to Gaza.
former Israeli ambassador and government adviser Alon Pinkas said to Al Jazeera: “Let’s say we take Trump seriously,” “Israel has to commit to the deal and see it through to at least the second phase [when the population transfer might take place]
“Now, say we don’t? 1. Hamas still has no incentive to stay with the ceasefire. 2. They and everyone else in Gaza, all 2.3 million, will be kicked out anyway. 3. Where’s their motivation to keep with the ceasefire agreement?
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114336
02/10/25 06:48 PM
02/10/25 06:48 PM
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Trojan
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Spoilers: If the US ethnically cleanses Gaza, even temporarily, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir and their allies would feel closer to their long-nurtured hope of colonising it than they have ever been before.
If, as Pinkas suggests, Trump’s intervention leads to the collapse of the ceasefire, they at least get the return to the war they supported through 16 months of unrestrained carnage.
In both cases, Netanyahu would likely emerge stronger, either through a unified and combined cabinet or as a war leader, defending what he frames as the “Jewish homeland”.
Even the threat of an early election, Barak suggested, may play to the prime minister’s end: “New elections would make any government a transitional one,”
He said, referring to the various challenges the government faces in addition to the potential threat posed by its right, such as the upcoming budget and the debate over drafting Israel’s ultra-Orthodox, “meaning it wouldn’t have to overcome any of those hurdles.
Anything that gives Netanyahu time is always good for him. He’s done this before.”
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114340
02/10/25 06:56 PM
02/10/25 06:56 PM
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Posts: 1,259
Trojan
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As regards Israel's leverage: I reckon None - lost it all October 7 complacent Israel letting Hamas breach Israel's 'Fort Knox' deterrence vaunted security barriers Iron Wall, Iron Dome and some
From: The Jerusalem Post February 10, 2025 Israel has lost its leverage in the Gaza hostage deal
No one should be surprised at Hamas’s announcement that it is freezing the hostage releases as part of the Gaza deal, citing Israeli violations.
Once the IDF pulled out of the Netzarim Corridor, which splits Gaza City from southern Gaza, effectively splitting the enclave in two, Palestinians who had moved south to avoid the bombings in the north were able to return their homes.
The military even partially opened the Rafah crossing, which separates the Gaza Strip from Egypt to the south.
This means Israel no longer has leverage at this stage of the deal. So, why exactly would this be surprising?
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Trojan]
#1114347
02/10/25 07:09 PM
02/10/25 07:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,259
Trojan
Underboss
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Day 494 The world has been watching... 1. taking Israel to task over everything it does or does not do 2. never the terrorists 3. and conveniently forgetting their tunnel-based urban warfare terror using civilians as human shields Israel is the only country in the world that has to defend itself, for defending itself, in their terrorists invasion of unprovoked brutal terror, monstrous, violent Guerilla warfare unleashed inside their borders Anyone who cover their faces... enough said As regards Israel's leverage: I reckon None - lost it all October 7 complacent Israel letting Hamas breach Israel's 'Fort Knox' deterrence vaunted security barriers Iron Wall, Iron Dome and some- Israel forced to negotiate with terrorists Hamas
Israel has long standing policy of never negotiating with terrorists but now having to negotiate, having to treat terrorists Hamas as if Hamas is some legitimate organisation, on an equal footing Terrorists calling the shots and Israel forced to agree to the ceasefire on Hamas' terms
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114369
02/10/25 10:29 PM
02/10/25 10:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,681 AZ
Turnbull
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I saw some reserve in Netanyahu's reaction to Trump's Gaza takeover scheme. Though he said it was an example of new and creative thinking by Trump, he didn't outright say he endorsed the plan, and he looked a bit wary when he sat next to Trump when Trump announced it. Reasons (perhaps):
--He may not have known exactly what Trump planned to say beforehand. --The plan is so radical that he's waiting to see if Trump really means to carry it out. --The plan could cause huge problems for Israel. Gaza as American territory, with few or no Palestinians, and rebuilt as a "resort," would become a gigantic target for terrorists, America-haters and Jew-haters all around the world. Since Israel is closer and more vulnerable than America, Israel could face a host of new or renewed enemies. --It would encourage the wildest, craziest dreams of the ultra-religious zealots in his ruling coalition, complicating any plans to negotiate a postwar peace and restore efforts to encourage relations with Saudi Arabia and other anti-Iran nations.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Turnbull]
#1114370
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump Offered Revolutionary PlanHaaretz by Noa Shpigel and Ben Samuels 11 February 2025 Extracts: - 'Trump Offered Revolutionary Plan. You Wanted Gaza's Day After; You Got It'
Prime Minister Netanyahu made a variety of claims at Monday's Knesset session: 1. His Israeli opponents were helping Hamas, 2. the recent return of hostages was due to his insistence 3. and his meeting with Trump was the most important with a US president, in Israel's history Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended his policies since the events of October 7, 2023 in Monday's Knesset sitting, during a session about a possible vote of no confidence in the government - Day 494 How is Netanyahu defending the failures and security lapses that led to, among others,
1. not keeping the Israelis safe and secure inside Israel's borders 2. Hamas breaching Israel's 'Fort Knox' deterrence vaunted security barriers Iron Wall, Iron Dome and some 3. Hamas committing terror acts of evil barbarism and brutality 4. murdering around 1,200 and taking over 250 Israeli civilians hostageWhile there is a lot of anger towards Hamas, Israelis wonder where their Army was on October 7, 2023 "A lot of anger, a lot of questions about where the army was
Anger at the terrorists first of all and also at the army, how could it be that there was no one" US Secretary of State Marco Rubio "Hamas can never govern Gaza or threaten Israel again" 16 months of brutal war, the terrorists Hamas back in control of Gaza
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114371
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: - Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freed
President proposes letting ‘all hell break loose’ if hostages held by Hamas are not returned to Israel at noon on Saturday Donald Trump has warned that if all the Israeli hostages held in Gaza are not returned by Saturday at noon he would propose, 1. canceling the Israel-Hamas ceasefire 2. and letting “all hell break loose” Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office late on Monday, the US president also said, He might, withhold aid to Jordan and Egypt if those countries do not take Palestinian refugees being relocated from Gaza Trump’s comments came after Hamas said it was delaying the release of hostages indefinitely over “violations” of the ceasefire deal, prompting Israel’s defence minister to put the country’s military on alert with orders to prepare for “any scenario in Gaza” Trump called the statement by Hamas “terrible” and said, He would, let that be Israel’s decision” on what should ultimately happen to the ceasefire
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114372
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: - Trump: all of the hostages returned by Saturday
The initial and only ceasefire should have been unconditional surrender by terrorists Hamas and return of ALL the living and dead hostagesTrump said, as far as I’m concerned, if all of the hostages aren’t returned by Saturday 12 o’clock – I think it’s an appropriate time – I would say cancel it [the ceasefire] and all bets are off and let hell break out The ultimatum could end a three-week-old ceasefire which dictates a strict schedule for the release of the [33] Israeli hostages in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners being held in Israeli jails Trump said, the hostages should be released “not in dribs and drabs, not two and one and three and four and two We want them all back
I’m speaking for myself. Israel can override it, but for myself, Saturday at 12 o’clock – and if they’re not here, all hell is going to break out Trump indicated he had not spoken to Benjamin Netanyahu about the timeline he suggested Asked about any concrete measures he was threatening to take to enforce his demand, Trump said, You’ll find out. And they’ll find out too. Hamas will find out what I mean These are sick people He did not directly respond to a question on whether or not that would entail US military action
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114373
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: - ceasefire at breaking point
Hamas, Israeli and Arab officials have already warned that the ceasefire is at a breaking point and Trump’s radical intervention could stoke fears that Washington does not have any intent to continue with the phased deal A Hamas spokesperson cited past Israeli violations for halting the exchanges but the militant group’s threat to suspend hostage releases comes against a backdrop of increasingly hardline US and Israeli positions about the long-term future of the strip Trump also said that he could “conceivably” withhold aid to Jordan and Egypt – some of the US’s closest allies in the region – unless they agreed to his plan for the US in what would amount to an effective ethnic cleansing, 1. to “take over” Gaza and 2. to relocate millions of Palestinians to the neighbouring states “If they don’t agree, I would conceivably withhold it” [the aid] Trump's threat came after Egypt in a statement issued earlier Monday after foreign minister Badr Abdelatty met with his US counterpart in Washington, rejected any compromise that would infringe on Palestinians’ rights
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114374
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: - Terrorists calling the shots
Egyptian security sources separately told Reuters that mediators fear the ceasefire could collapse and have postponed talks until they receive a clear indication of Washington’s intent to continue with the phased deal Israel’s security cabinet has moved forward a meeting to discuss negotiations on the second phase, which had been scheduled for Tuesday evening the Kan news outlet reported, the army has cancelled all leave for soldiers in the Gaza division, in another sign that Israeli authorities are preparing for the resumption of war Before Trump’s comments, Hamas said the “door remains open” for the next hostage-prisoner exchange on Saturday In a statement, the group said it had, “intentionally made this announcement five days before the scheduled prisoner handover, allowing mediators ample time to pressure [Israel] towards fulfilling its obligations” Hamas added, “The door remains open for the prisoner exchange batch to proceed as planned, once the occupation complies”
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114375
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: Trump’s comments on the ceasefire were his second apparently unscripted intervention in the crisis on Monday. Earlier, Trump said that his plan to “take over Gaza” 1. would not include a right of return for the more than 2 million Palestinians 2. the Palestinians have “no alternative” but to leave because of the destruction left by Israel’s military campaign Hamas' campaign their tunnel-based urban warfare terror using civilians as human shields and their murder, destruction, taking civilian hostages Extracts: their terrorists invasion of unprovoked brutal terror, monstrous, violent Guerilla warfare unleashed inside Israel's borders forced Israel’s military campaign because of Hamas' evil barbarism and brutality
Asked about Palestinians who refused to leave, Trump said, “They’re all gonna leave” Arab states have denounced the plan and the United Nations’s top investigator told Politico, Trump’s plan for the “forcible displacement of an occupied group is an international crime and amounts to ethnic cleansing” what cleansing is? the terrorists ultimate goal of annihilating the Jews and wiping Israel off the map
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114376
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: - Trump's rebuild Gaza not for the Gazans
In the interview with Fox’s Bret Baier, Trump said that he would, “own” the Gaza Strip and declared, it would be a “real estate development for the future” Asked if Palestinians would have the right to return to Gaza, Trump told Baier, No, they wouldn’t because they’re going to have much better housing Trump added, Could be five, six, could be two” “But we’ll build safe communities, a little bit away from where they are, where all of this danger is"
“In other words, I’m talking about building a permanent place for them because if they have to return now, it’ll be years before you could ever – it’s not habitable” - Qatar: ceasefire-hostage deal in jeopardy
Qatar had warned Israeli officials at the weekend that even the first stage of the ceasefire deal was being put in jeopardy by provocative statements from Netanyahu and by his government’s approach to talks on a second stage Haaretz reported Never mind the provocative statements from terrorists Hamasan Israeli source said, Qatari diplomats sent angry messages to Israeli counterparts, reminding them that as hosts, key mediators and guarantors of the deal’s implementation, they too have a stake in its survival Qatar also reminded the terrorists Hamas?
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114377
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Australia
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: In Tel Aviv, protesters blocked streets on Monday night, demanding the return of all hostages, as some relatives accused their government of sabotaging the deal and endangering their loved ones Einav Zangauker, the mother of Matan Zangauker, who is a hostage in Gaza and not listed for release under the first stage of the deal, said, [Hamas spokesperson] Abu Obeida’s statement is a direct result of Netanyahu’s irresponsible behaviour
[Netanyahu’s] deliberate procrastination and unnecessary provocative statements disrupted the implementation of the agreement - remaining hostages' survival
The next exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners and detainees had been scheduled for this Saturday and would have been the sixth under the six-week-long first stage of the ceasefire deal The skeletal appearance of three hostages released on Saturday shocked many Israelis and increased pressure on the government to reach a deal to bring home those still trapped Several recently returned hostages have said they fear those still inside Gaza will struggle to survive much longer
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114378
02/11/25 12:04 AM
02/11/25 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Trump says Gaza ceasefire should be cancelled if Israeli hostages not freedThe Guardian by Andrew Roth in Washington, Emma Graham-Harrison and Quique Kierszenbaum in Jerusalem 11 February 2025 Extracts: Hamas is due to release 33 hostages during the first stage of the deal, although eight of them are dead The list of those who will be released includes women – civilians and soldiers – children, the sick and older men Israel has agreed to release about 1,900 Palestinian prisoners and detainees Sixteen Israelis have been released so far, all alive Hamas also released five Thai citizens last week They had not been included in the negotiations The second stage of the ceasefire deal under a framework agreed days before Trump’s inauguration in January is intended, 1. to bring the return of all living hostages 2. and the complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza Negotiations on the details of that stage were always expected to be even more challenging than agreeing the initial ceasefire
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114444
02/11/25 08:29 PM
02/11/25 08:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
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Trojan
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From: Haaretz February 11, 2025 Jordan rejects displacement of Palestinians, supports two-state solution, King Abdullah says
Jordan's King Abdullah pushed back on Trump's plans for Jordan to absorb Gazan immigrants, saying: "Let's wait and not get ahead of ourselves," but offered to take in 2,000 sick children from Gaza.
Jordan's King Abdullah said, after his meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump, he had: "reiterated Jordan's steadfast position against the displacement of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank."
1. This is the unified Arab position, the priority for all 2. Rebuilding Gaza without displacing the Palestinians 3. and addressing the dire humanitarian situation
He added that 1. "Achieving a just peace on the basis of the two-state solution is the way to ensure regional stability" 2. and "This requires U.S. leadership." 3. "President Trump is a man of peace," 4. "He was instrumental in securing the Gaza cease-fire." 5. "We look to the U.S and all stakeholders in ensuring it holds,"
The Jordanian leader also said, in their meeting he: 1. "stressed the importance of working towards de-escalation in the West Bank 2. and preventing a deterioration of the situation there that could have far-reaching implications for the entire region."
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114447
02/11/25 08:37 PM
02/11/25 08:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,259
Trojan
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From: Reuters February 11, 2025
Jordan and Egypt statements come as Trump continues to press for his plan, 1. to take over the Gaza Strip 2. and resettle its population to neighboring Egypt and Jordan despite rejection from Arab states.
Additionally, on Tuesday, Trump met with Jordan's King Abdullah, stating: 1. "Palestinians will live safely in another location that is not Gaza," 2. "the US wasn't going to buy Gaza but rather "run it very properly."
Trump said he thinks there will be parcels of land in Jordan and in Egypt where Palestinians will live, to which the King replied that he would do what is best for his country and that a future plan has to be in everyone's best interest.
Abdullah did, however, say that Jordan would take in 2,000 sick children from Gaza.
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Hollander]
#1114449
02/11/25 08:44 PM
02/11/25 08:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
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Trojan
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French President Emmanuel Macron told CNN news in an interview recorded last week at Elysée palace: 1. 'political operation' is correct solution for Gaza, not a 'real estate operation' 2. "You cannot say to 2 million people, 'okay, now guess what? You will move,"
A political source said the Israeli security cabinet backs "Trump's revolutionary vision for the future of Gaza."
Member of Knesset Yuli Edelstein rejected U.S. President Donald Trump's plan that Egypt and Jordan take in Gaza's two million residents, saying: "Immigration from Gaza should be directed to more distant countries."
Hamas response: In an official statement on Thursday, Hamas said: 1. they strongly rejected Trump's plan to relocate Gazans 2. and called on Arab countries to unite with the intent of combating the decision.
Hamas also demanded an emergency summit with Arab countries to confront what the terror group referred to as Trump's "displacement project."
"Trump's talk about Washington's acceptance of the Gaza Strip can be compared to a declaration of its [the US's] desire to occupy the Strip,"
1. "We do not need any country to patrol the Gaza Strip, 2. and we do not accept replacing one occupation with another,"
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1114450
02/11/25 08:50 PM
02/11/25 08:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
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Trojan
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- Trump: all of the hostages returned by Saturday
The initial and only ceasefire should have been unconditional surrender by terrorists Hamas and return of ALL the living and dead hostagesFrom: Haaretz February 11, 2025 Trump on his newly imposed deadline: 1. "It's going to be a big moment, we'll see what happens. 2. I don't expect much happening with these people, but we'll see what happens." Hamas tells Trump ‘threats have no value,’ as Israeli far right praises US ultimatum Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned that "If Hamas does not return our hostages by Saturday at noon, the IDF will resume intense fighting until Hamas is finally defeated." 16 months of brutal war, the terrorists Hamas still in control of Gaza still not defeated Hamas said, following Netanyahu's statement, 1. it is committed to continuing the Gaza cease-fire deal 2. and holds Israel accountable for any "complications or delays. The Houthis' leader, Abdul-Malik al-Houthi, said: the group is, 1. ready to launch attacks on Israel 2. if it does not commit the cease-fire deal and resumes the fighting in Gaza. Terrorists still calling the shots
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Re: Israel: 'State of war'
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1114452
02/11/25 08:56 PM
02/11/25 08:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,259
Trojan
Underboss
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Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended his policies since the events of October 7, 2023 in Monday's Knesset sitting, during a session about a possible vote of no confidence in the government - Day 494 How is Netanyahu defending the failures and security lapses that led to, among others,
1. not keeping the Israelis safe and secure inside Israel's borders 2. Hamas breaching Israel's 'Fort Knox' deterrence vaunted security barriers Iron Wall, Iron Dome and some 3. Hamas committing terror acts of evil barbarism and brutality 4. murdering around 1,200 and taking over 250 Israeli civilians hostageWhile there is a lot of anger towards Hamas, Israelis wonder where their Army was on October 7, 2023 "A lot of anger, a lot of questions about where the army was
Anger at the terrorists first of all and also at the army, how could it be that there was no one" They were not even aware Hamas was inside Israel, running amok, for hours
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