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Why did Michael hurt Tom?
#1118090
03/24/25 02:30 AM
03/24/25 02:30 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,709 AZ
Turnbull
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Michael was never more reprehensible than at his boathouse meeting with Tom, Rocco and Neri near the end of II:
TOM: Why did you ask me if something was wrong when I came in? MICHAEL: I thought you were goin' to tell me that -- you were going to move your family to Vegas -- and that you'd been offered the vice-presidency of the house and hotels there I thought you were goin' to tell me that. TOM: I turned them down -- do I have to tell you about ever offer I turn down? MICHAEL: let's do business. TOM: Alright -- just consider this Mike -- that's all just consider it. Now ROTH and the Rosato's are on the run -- are they worth it? And are they strong -- is it worth it -- I mean you've won -- do you have to wipe everyone out? MICHAEL: I don't fell I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. You gonna come along with me in these things I have to do -- or what. Because if not you can take your wife, your family, and your mistress -- and move 'em all to Las Vegas. TOM: Why do you hurt me MICHAEL -- I've always been loyal to you -- I mean what is this. MICHAEL: So -- you're staying? TOM: Yes, I'm staying. Now what is it that you want me to do?
So: Why did Michael hurt Tom--humiliated him--in front of Rocco and Neri? I’m tempted to say, “because he could,” and it wouldn’t be a wrong answer. But I think Michael, as usual, had additional reasons.
What do you think?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom?
[Re: Turnbull]
#1118253
03/26/25 02:28 AM
03/26/25 02:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 90 Adelaide, Australia
lucab19
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In the novel, when Tom is released by Solozzo and returns to the compound, Michael is a bit resentful when he realizes that Tom is closer to Sonny than he could hope to be. Perhaps it's a carryover of that?
Last edited by lucab19; 03/26/25 02:28 AM.
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Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom?
[Re: olivant]
#1118452
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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Michael introduced Tom to Kay “ My brother, Tom Hagen” Then only after Kay asked, “If he's your brother, why does he have a different name?” Michael explained why and added, "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but -- I think he's gonna be consiglieri -- very important to the family"
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Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom?
[Re: Turnbull]
#1118453
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
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The Elephant in the room — Tom is not a wartime consiglieri In fact not much of a peace time consiglieri either even in routine simple matters, Michael had to guide Tom eg: Tom had no idea that Roth's passport's been invalidated except for return to the United States Michael: “You're not a wartime Consiglieri Tom Things may get rough with the move we're trying” Sonny: “Goddamn it! If I had a wartime consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape! Pop had Genco -- look what I got” - penultimate boathouse scene
I see it differently.... "boathouse meeting" was Tom's [self] punishment! Tom asked the question "-- in front of Rocco and Neri" "Why did you ask me if something was wrong when I came in?" So Michael answered "-- in front of Rocco and Neri" Then Tom was trying to discourage Michael from killing Roth — on the run now — but Roth will always be a threat to Michael A man like Roth would never rest until Michael was dead or destroyed - "The Art of the Deal" Trump style!
Michael giving brother! Tom a drink and making Tom the Don Well....'Band of Brothers'
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Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom?
[Re: Turnbull]
#1118454
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
Yesterday at 12:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Kangaroo Don
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How could Tom have not known about Frankie Pentangeli's survival? - Tom lets his one and only client Michael commit up to five counts of perjury
- Tom had no idea “Alive -- Pentangeli is alive” until after Michael had committed perjury
- “Fredo says he doesn't know anything -- and I believe him”
- Then we find Fredo knew plenty
Besides, Tom sets himself up for [self] punishment! every time. Tom never learns.... among others, 1. penultimate boathouse scene 2. Ola meeting 3. Michael enlisting in the Marines 4. Fish tank scene Tom doesn't read the situation and wouldn't let go.... even after the dreaded Corleone stare and the decision has obviously been made Tom can't see that the decision made will remain unchanged and whatever Tom says will make no difference whatsoever It is clear to everyone but Tom!
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Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom?
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1118579
5 hours ago
5 hours ago
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Turnbull
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These are all excellent observations. The variety of them shows just how much nuance is contained in that brief scene. I'd like to add a few: I'm usually far more sympathetic to Tom than to Michael. But, in this case I think Michael was legitimately pissed at Tom for several reasons. Michael was stunned and dismayed when he learned--after he testified--that Pentanageli was alive. Tom's reply was insulting: "Roth, he played this one beautifully...you've opened yourself to five counts of perjury." Tom was praising Roth and chiding Michael. Not very "brotherly." Tom over-reacted to Michael's order to kill Roth ("It'd be like killing the President...do you have to kill everyone?"). That type of lawyerly over-caution might have been necessary for Sonny, given his hot temper, but not for Michael, who'd correctly thought it through and concluded that Roth was his most resourceful and dangerous enemy, and had to go. Tom had also had let Michael down badly by screwing up. "Our people with the NY detectives said [Pentangeli] was half deadI, scared.talking out loud about how you betrayed him..." If Tom did his job right as Michael's liaison with the NY detectives , why didn't he pick up that Pentangeli survived before Michael testified? And, when Michael asked, "What abot Fredo?", Tom, who was Michael's liaison to Fredo replied, "He says he knows nothing--and I believe him." But, Fredo knew Pentangeli had survived--and, more important, that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, "belongs to Roth." Why didn't Tom get that out of Fredo before Michael testified? Michael needed Tom for two critical missions at that point: To persuade Vincenzo to come to America to show himself when Pentangeli testified, and to persuade Pentangeli to kill himself. He had accumulated doubts about Tom's attitude toward him and his judgment, That's why he got tough and hurtful when he asked, "Are you going to come along with me in these things I have to do?" , Perhaps Rocco or Neri complained to Michael about Tom When Michael says to Tom: "...you can take your wife, your family and your mistress to Vegas..." the camera pans to Neri, whose smug, self-satisfied expression tells me that he was the source of that tidbit.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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