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Why did Michael hurt Tom? #1118090
03/24/25 02:30 AM
03/24/25 02:30 AM
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Turnbull Offline OP
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Michael was never more reprehensible than at his boathouse meeting with Tom, Rocco and Neri near the end of II:

TOM: Why did you ask me if something was wrong when I came in?
MICHAEL: I thought you were goin' to tell me that -- you were going to move your family to Vegas -- and that you'd been offered the vice-presidency of the house and hotels there I thought you were goin' to tell me that.
TOM: I turned them down -- do I have to tell you about ever offer I turn down?
MICHAEL: let's do business.
TOM: Alright -- just consider this Mike -- that's all just consider it. Now ROTH and the Rosato's are on the run -- are they worth it? And are they strong -- is it worth it -- I mean you've won -- do you have to wipe everyone out?
MICHAEL: I don't fell I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. You gonna come along with me in these things I have to do -- or what. Because if not you can take your wife, your family, and your mistress -- and move 'em all to Las Vegas.
TOM: Why do you hurt me MICHAEL -- I've always been loyal to you -- I mean what is this.
MICHAEL: So -- you're staying?
TOM: Yes, I'm staying. Now what is it that you want me to do?

So: Why did Michael hurt Tom--humiliated him--in front of Rocco and Neri? I’m tempted to say, “because he could,” and it wouldn’t be a wrong answer. But I think Michael, as usual, had additional reasons.

What do you think?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118104
03/24/25 08:41 AM
03/24/25 08:41 AM
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JCrusher Offline
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Interesting Question. I think by that point Mike was so paranoid and thought everyone around him had ulterior motives. Just shows how far he came from the young man returning from serving his country and wanting nothing to do with the mob life

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118106
03/24/25 09:02 AM
03/24/25 09:02 AM
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CleanBandit Offline
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If memory serves me correctly, prior to that he had Tom appointed as the head of the family while Michael was away; there was that scene where Michael manipulated Tom by calling him his brother, which he definitely knew Tom always wanted to hear.

Perhaps Rocco or Neri complained to Michael about Tom, or on the other end of the spectrum, perhaps Michael saw Rocco and Neri listen more and more to Tom and he wanted to put him in his place.

Or maybe, as you say TB, because he could. But I always found that scene and their dynamic very interesting as well.

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118229
03/25/25 06:50 PM
03/25/25 06:50 PM
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I think that he was bullying Tom in order to extract an unconditional pledge of loyalty from Tom. He needs Tom's support to go ahead with killing Fredo.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118253
03/26/25 02:28 AM
03/26/25 02:28 AM
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lucab19 Offline
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In the novel, when Tom is released by Solozzo and returns to the compound, Michael is a bit resentful when he realizes that Tom is closer to Sonny than he could hope to be. Perhaps it's a carryover of that?

Last edited by lucab19; 03/26/25 02:28 AM.
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: lucab19] #1118284
03/26/25 02:54 PM
03/26/25 02:54 PM
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olivant Offline
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Originally Posted by lucab19
In the novel, when Tom is released by Solozzo and returns to the compound, Michael is a bit resentful when he realizes that Tom is closer to Sonny than he could hope to be. Perhaps it's a carryover of that?


Exactly. Mike never felt close to Tom. Remember the wedding reception scene after Mike introduced Tom to Kay. Mike felt it necessary to comment to Kay that Tom was not a Sicilian. Totally unnecessary.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: olivant] #1118452
03/28/25 12:02 AM
03/28/25 12:02 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Michael introduced Tom to Kay “My brother, Tom Hagen”

Then only after Kay asked,
Quote
“If he's your brother, why does he have a different name?”

Michael explained why and added,
Quote
"He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but -- I think he's gonna be consiglieri -- very important to the family"

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118453
03/28/25 12:02 AM
03/28/25 12:02 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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The Elephant in the room — Tom is not a wartime consiglieri In fact not much of a peace time consiglieri either
even in routine simple matters, Michael had to guide Tom

Quote
Michael: “You're not a wartime Consiglieri Tom Things may get rough with the move we're trying”
Quote
Sonny: “Goddamn it! If I had a wartime consiglieri -- a Sicilian -- I wouldn't be in this shape! Pop had Genco -- look what I got”

  • penultimate boathouse scene
I see it differently.... "boathouse meeting" was Tom's [self] punishment!

Tom asked the question "-- in front of Rocco and Neri"
Quote
"Why did you ask me if something was wrong when I came in?"
So Michael answered "-- in front of Rocco and Neri"

Then Tom was trying to discourage Michael from killing Roth — on the run now — but Roth will always be a threat to Michael
A man like Roth would never rest until Michael was dead or destroyed

  • "The Art of the Deal" Trump style!
Michael giving brother! Tom a drink and making Tom the Don Well....'Band of Brothers'

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118454
03/28/25 12:02 AM
03/28/25 12:02 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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How could Tom have not known about Frankie Pentangeli's survival?
  • Tom lets his one and only client Michael commit up to five counts of perjury
  • Tom had no idea “Alive -- Pentangeli is alive” until after Michael had committed perjury
  • “Fredo says he doesn't know anything -- and I believe him”
  • Then we find Fredo knew plenty

Besides, Tom sets himself up for [self] punishment! every time. Tom never learns.... among others,
1. penultimate boathouse scene
2. Ola meeting
3. Michael enlisting in the Marines
4. Fish tank scene

Tom doesn't read the situation and wouldn't let go.... even after the dreaded Corleone stare and the decision has obviously been made
Tom can't see that the decision made will remain unchanged and whatever Tom says will make no difference whatsoever

It is clear to everyone but Tom!

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1118579
03/29/25 02:50 AM
03/29/25 02:50 AM
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Turnbull Offline OP
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These are all excellent observations. The variety of them shows just how much nuance is contained in that brief scene. I'd like to add a few:

I'm usually far more sympathetic to Tom than to Michael. But, in this case I think Michael was legitimately pissed at Tom for several reasons. Michael was stunned and dismayed when he learned--after he testified--that Pentanageli was alive. Tom's reply was insulting: "Roth, he played this one beautifully...you've opened yourself to five counts of perjury." Tom was praising Roth and chiding Michael. Not very "brotherly."

Tom over-reacted to Michael's order to kill Roth ("It'd be like killing the President...do you have to kill everyone?"). That type of lawyerly over-caution might have been necessary for Sonny, given his hot temper, but not for Michael, who'd correctly thought it through and concluded that Roth was his most resourceful and dangerous enemy, and had to go.

Tom had also had let Michael down badly by screwing up. "Our people with the NY detectives said [Pentangeli] was half deadI, scared.talking out loud about how you betrayed him..." If Tom did his job right as Michael's liaison with the NY detectives , why didn't he pick up that Pentangeli survived before Michael testified? And, when Michael asked, "What abot Fredo?", Tom, who was Michael's liaison to Fredo replied, "He says he knows nothing--and I believe him." But, Fredo knew Pentangeli had survived--and, more important, that the Senate lawyer, Questadt, "belongs to Roth." Why didn't Tom get that out of Fredo before Michael testified?

Michael needed Tom for two critical missions at that point: To persuade Vincenzo to come to America to show himself when Pentangeli testified, and to persuade Pentangeli to kill himself. He had accumulated doubts about Tom's attitude toward him and his judgment, That's why he got tough and hurtful when he asked, "Are you going to come along with me in these things I have to do?"
Originally Posted by CleanBandit
,
Perhaps Rocco or Neri complained to Michael about Tom

When Michael says to Tom: "...you can take your wife, your family and your mistress to Vegas..." the camera pans to Neri, whose smug, self-satisfied expression tells me that he was the source of that tidbit.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118651
Yesterday at 12:01 AM
Yesterday at 12:01 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Australia
As Frankie's brother Vincenzo was already on his way, to enforce omertà knowing about Questadt was not pivotal
Brilliant! This was Ace! thus trumping “Roth played this one beautifully”

However it showed Tom up even more that Tom was “not up to the consiglieri job” including Tom had no idea that Roth's passport's been invalidated except for return to the United States

Originally Posted by Turnbull
Extracts: Michael was stunned and dismayed when he learned--after he testified--that Pentanageli was alive. Tom's reply was insulting: "Roth, he played this one beautifully...you've opened yourself to five counts of perjury." Tom was praising Roth and chiding Michael. Not very "brotherly."

Sure thing Tom seemingly happy! taking satisfaction from Michael's predicament and acting like —
1. It had nothing to do with Tom
2. It was not the consiglieri's fault
3. It was not the consiglieri's job, to know about these things....
4. condescending and Not very "brotherly." indeed even if Tom was not the consiglieri

Originally Posted by Trojan
Also Tom's glee and satisfaction wouldn't have escaped Michael who'd have noted this disloyalty and Tom having a mistress wouldn't have sat well with him either

Tom, Rocco and Neri?
Originally Posted by Turnbull
why weren't you on top of the Pentangeli survival and arrest? Duh-h-h, Tom!

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118652
Yesterday at 12:01 AM
Yesterday at 12:01 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Extracts:
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by CleanBandit
Perhaps Rocco or Neri complained to Michael about Tom

When Michael says to Tom: "...you can take your wife, your family and your mistress to Vegas..." the camera pans to Neri, whose smug, self-satisfied expression tells me that he was the source of that tidbit.
It looks like someone was keeping tabs on Tom! and feeding tidbits! to Michael

I am not sure what Rocco and Neri would have had? — to complain about Tom

  • 'Don' Tom, Rocco and Neri
I don't recall any interaction between Tom and Neri — I can't see Neri taking orders from Tom....

and the only one with Rocco, I can recall was the Tahoe assassins [Two Buttonmen fish out the bodies]
Quote
Tom: Alright, get rid of the bodies.
Rocco: Where's Mike?
Tom: Rocco! somewhat sternly and walks off

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118662
Yesterday at 08:49 AM
Yesterday at 08:49 AM
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CleanBandit Offline
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Great observations KD.

To answer where you've quoted me, Rocco and Neri were loyal soldiers/capos to Michael and Michael made Tom the Don during his absence. The fact is, we don't know how Tom ran the family while Michael was traveling around the US. I know we didn't have any on screen interactions between the 3 of them, but that doesn't mean things weren't happening off screen.

Either way, 50+ years later, we're debating about one specific scene, as Turnbull had mentioned: "The variety of them shows just how much nuance is contained in that brief scene." It is absolutely beautiful cinema.

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118712
Yesterday at 07:38 PM
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I wonder if the abortion is why Mike was so pissed at Tom as well? He was supposed to be watching over the family yet she got away by herself to get an abortion

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: dixiemafia] #1118740
Yesterday at 10:52 PM
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Tom was watching over the family.
Kay couldn't even go to the market, was turned back at the Gate on Tom's orders and Michael's request for their safety. New England trip is off too

She didn't necessarily have to get away by herself, to get an abortion If...
Even an escorted Kay would not have buttonmen present during Kay's medical examination / consultation with her Gynaecologist

Don't know... We have debated before abortion or miscarriage?

Some of us including myself, believe it was miscarriage perhaps during the Tahoe shooting trauma and Kay out to spite:
It was a son Michael, a son and I had it killed --

Besides No doctor especially the family doctor would dare perform an abortion on Michael Corleone's wife

The bigger mystery is Michael just accepting it

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Kangaroo Don] #1118742
Yesterday at 11:04 PM
Yesterday at 11:04 PM
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Turnbull Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
As Frankie's brother Vincenzo was already on his way, to enforce omertà knowing about Questadt was not pivotal

How could Vincenzo already be on his way when Michael had just found out that Pentageli was alive?

Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Sure thing Tom seemingly happy! taking satisfaction from Michael's predicament and acting like —
1. It had nothing to do with Tom

I think that must have really pissed Michael off: "You've opened yourself up to five counts of perjury" [emphasis added]. Even if Tom wasn't his brother, he was still his lawyer. Wouldn't Michael have consulted Tom about his testimony, and the risks involved in waiving his Fifth Amendment privilege and lying under oath???


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118744
17 hours ago
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
As Frankie's brother Vincenzo was already on his way, to enforce omertà knowing about Questadt was not pivotal

How could Vincenzo already be on his way when Michael had just found out that Pentageli was alive?

They used the same Travel Agency!
that arranged for Bussetta to be whisked! from wherever — for Vincenzo Pentangeli’s speedy, miraculous appearance! at the Senate hearing

Frankie and Vincenzo
Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Michael's "perjury rap"
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Michael probably sent for Vincenzo the moment he heard that Pentangeli survived, and before he summoned Fredo..

My take too since Michael already knew that Frankie Pentangeli was alive and was being prepared in custody to testify against Michael – the committee's secret star witness before Michael went to talk to Fredo -- arrangements would have already been put in place,
1. to bring Frankie's brother, Vincenzo over or
2. Vincenzo was already on a plane, to the Senate hearing

Re: Why did Michael hurt Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1118745
17 hours ago
17 hours ago
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Kangaroo Don
Sure thing Tom seemingly happy! taking satisfaction from Michael's predicament and acting like —
1. It had nothing to do with Tom

I think that must have really pissed Michael off: "You've opened yourself up to five counts of perjury" [emphasis added]. Even if Tom wasn't his brother, he was still his lawyer. Wouldn't Michael have consulted Tom about his testimony, and the risks involved in waiving his Fifth Amendment privilege and lying under oath???

Indeed "You've opened yourself up to five counts of perjury" You did! Nothing to do with me

In fairness, irrespective of Tom's advice or the risks involved — Michael,
1. still would have waived his Fifth Amendment privilege
2. still would have lied under oath

I can't ever! see Michael responding to accusations of his 'complete falsehood' criminal past with
Quote
“I decline to answer that question because my answer might tend to incriminate me”

Also Michael feeling invulnerable, believing Frankie Pentangeli — the only one — who “has had no buffer between himself and Michael Corleone” was dead


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