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Re: Adoption
#114674
06/15/05 10:19 AM
06/15/05 10:19 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by JustMe: [QUOTE]...Never in my post I said that you shouldn't adopt or take care of orphans. If you accuse me of it, prove it. >>> And yes I think that it's better to raise the kid in his own nation and race, because once you are what you are, you cannot change your mentality, and the same people with you will underatsnd it better. At least, the child won't be laughed at or pointed at by his peers at school etc. Children are cruel, they naturally have no tolerance to anything outstanding, different from them. Never in my post did I say either that I think it's better to grow up homeless than be adopted internationally. Why do you honor me with so many opinions that I never expressed? ...if you see any real reason to believe my thinking limited, wouldn't you kindly point it out? JustMe...below is an excerpt taken directly from your original post. While it's true you do not actually state that nobody should adopt or take care of orphans, I'll point out that in MY post I did not accuse you of saying that. I did say that your views on adoption are limited, and they are. You make black & white assumptions as to the reasons children are abandoned. You state optimism about international adoption ultimately being prohibited...apparently because a of various scandals and the tragic incident of a woman beating to death a Russian born child. You also referred to a potentiallly adoptive child as a 'random orphan'. While I suppose that is a technically accurate term...it's also a little bit cold. While I agree that the BEST scenario for any child would be to be raised in the country/culture in which they were born, that is not always possible and there are millions of healthy, happy children in loving homes today who might be in orphanages or perhaps not even be alive had they remained in what you like to call 'their own nation'. As to nationality, many organizations and parents put a great deal of effort into providing foreign-born children an appreciation of the culture and language from which they were removed as infants or very young children. Yes, there are many cases of other kids teasing and being cruel, as kids will be. However that aspect of prejudice/racism is considered more & more on a proactive basis and there are books/seminars/workshops galore on how to prepare and help children deal with such things. I also do agree that the EARLIER in life a child is adopted, the better. However if a parent or set of parents has made the decision that they are emotionally and financially equipped to bring into their home and older or special needs child - and this decision is made with the aid of an OBJECTIVE Social Worker - then it is one of the most loving, caring and selfless commitments that anyone can possible undertake. That goes for people who are physically able to have children of their own children as well as those who are not. Yes, JustMe...your thinking on adoption is incredibly limited. And I'm betting that unless you do a little more research (which I don't expect you to do) ... it will remain so for many years to come. And I'm so glad that you feel honored to receive my pity....because you still have it. Best, Apple Originally posted by JustMe: [QUOTE]... Speaking about adoption. Consider, why should people leave a child. No normal people should. Events when the young child loses both parents and has no other relatives are rare. Usually the parents are either alcoholic, or drug addicts, or there's some problem with the child. Of course you can adopt ill child, but that is a commitment that must be well thought over. We have a family in our neighborhood, they adopted two boys, and they said that the earlier you adopt, the better. The more time this child spends without parents, the more reserved he/she becomes, and it may be difficult to wake their abilities later. There are some processes in human psycho that have no recourse, so I understood. Usually the most healthy and able children are adopted at once, on place. What remains - goes to charitable organizations, and the last remaining sometimes to the US. BTW, speaking about Russia, after some monster of an american woman killed a child that was adopted from Russia, there was a strong indignation, and many illegal adoption scandals, so now there's a strong movement against international adoption. They are doing well, and I hope they'll prohibit it finally. Every child must grow in their own nation.
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Adoption
#114675
06/15/05 11:59 AM
06/15/05 11:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
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Originally posted by AppleOnYa: You make black & white assumptions as to the reasons children are abandoned. I do not. I didn't say that my assumptions cover all cases. I just said that these cases are more usual. So they are, there's no secret. Why a normal, healthy, desired child should be abandoned? Only as the result of some tragic consequences, and they don't happen very often. As I also said in that very post you cited, the fact that the child may have problems is not a reason not to adopt him. But, as I said, this must be done consciously, you must be fully aware of the difficulties and responsibility, and you must have proper medical advice, and knowledge to help the child. What's wrong or limited here? Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
You state optimism about international adoption ultimately being prohibited...apparently because a of various scandals and the tragic incident of a woman beating to death a Russian born child. Where did I ever state that all international adoption must be absolutely prohibited? I've been talking only about such a movement in Russia. I have nothing against your adopting a child from china, which is over-populated, or, say, some African country where children are killed by epidemies and starve. But I do think that it is advisable to grow where you were born. Because when you take a child and transport him where you choose, you are depriving him of his nationality, which is unfair to him. If he choses to immigrate, he must do it himself, when he is grown. We do not chose it originally, as we don't our race and gender. But you wouldn't like it if anybody took a little child that is unable to speak for himself, and wilfully changed his sex? Even if he thought that it would be better for a child. When there's nothing vital, I do not see reasons that justify such violation of the child's right to have a choice. We like to have rights, let's not deny them to children and respect their life. Child is not a parcel, or a thing, a subject for import and export. You may disagree, of course, but than I think it will be my turn to pity you. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: As to nationality, many organizations and parents put a great deal of effort into providing foreign-born children an appreciation of the culture and language from which they were removed as infants or very young children. I hope you are not serious about it. Come on, you don't mean that "efforts of some parents" can make up for the loss of a language and culture that they don't even know themselves? Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
I also do agree that the EARLIER in life a child is adopted, the better. However if a parent or set of parents has made the decision that they are emotionally and financially equipped to bring into their home and older or special needs child - and this is decision is made with the aid of an OBJECTIVE Social Worker - then it is one of the most loving and caring things that anyone can possible undertake. Nobody doubts. I agree absolutely. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: That goes for people who are physically able to have their own children as well as those who are not. I didn't say that the people who can have children must not adopt them. I said only that I wouldn't deny the life to my own child because I intend to adopt one. There's the difference. Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
Yes, JustMe...your thinking on adoption is incredibly limited. I still fail to see the reasoning for this statement.
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Adoption
#114677
06/15/05 12:15 PM
06/15/05 12:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
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Originally posted by dontomasso: Just Me I believe your point of view is significantly flawed. If an infant is born in China or the South of India or wherever, and is immediately transported to Ohio, he or she will not be imbued with a "different culture." I think it is rarely the case, when a newborn child is transported from china to Ohio immediately . :rolleyes: I'm not saying that it is impossible, though. I'm just saying that it's unfair to the child, who cannot decide for himself, to transport him as we wish. We have no right to make such a decision on his behalf.
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Adoption
#114680
06/15/05 12:27 PM
06/15/05 12:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,907 Born on the Bayou
Saladbar
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,907
Born on the Bayou
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Originally posted by JustMe: [quote]Originally posted by dontomasso: [b] Just Me I believe your point of view is significantly flawed. If an infant is born in China or the South of India or wherever, and is immediately transported to Ohio, he or she will not be imbued with a "different culture." I think it is rarely the case, when a newborn child is transported from china to Ohio immediately . :rolleyes: I'm not saying that it is impossible, though. I'm just saying that it's unfair to the child, who cannot decide for himself, to transport him as we wish. We have no right to make such a decision on his behalf. [/b][/quote]Roughly 10% of my daughters's school are adopted Chinese. They are thriving and learning and happy and fit in with NO problems (perhaps because there are so many here?). Their options in China as abandoned females were nil. They would have been lucky to get a minimum education. Though I do have a friend (using money she got from FFC helping him film Apocalypse Now btw, funny link to this board a little) has set up a foundation in China to try to remedy this. She provides education for orphans that DO NOT get adopted: http://halfthesky.org/07AboutUs/usstaff.html
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it"
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Re: Adoption
#114681
06/15/05 12:28 PM
06/15/05 12:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224 New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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Originally posted by JustMe: [QUOTE]... when you take a child and transport him where you choose, you are depriving him of his nationality... Completely untrue. Yes, you are removing the child from their birthcountry. But you are NOT depriving them of their nationality. That is something that will always be theirs, and again it is up to the parent to provide the information and seek sources to have the child fully appreciate it. Originally posted by JustMe: [QUOTE]... you don't mean that "efforts of some parents" can make up for the loss of a language and culture that they don't even know themselves?... Not completely, no. However, many parents who bother to educate themselves in international adoption do provide as best an appreciation as possible to their children of the country, language and culture in which they were born. And yes, in many case the child is happier, healthier, loved and so much more fulfilled than if they had remained in their country of birth to be raised in an orphanage. Originally posted by JustMe: [QUOTE]...I didn't say that the people who can have children must not adopt them. I said only that I wouldn't deny the life to my own child because I intend to adopt one. There's the difference. You really can't deny life to a child or anything that doesn't yet exist. Deciding not to become pregnant is just that...deciding not become pregnant (and I'm not talking about abortion, so nobody jump on that...I simply mean choosing NOT to become a parent through pregnancy). Furthermore, though in most cases people choose adoption because they have found that the cannot have children...there are also many, many cases in which people who could have children physically decide to adopt instead...choosing to give their love and home to a child (or children) already born, alone for whatever reason, and needing a home. Also, more & more people who have already had one or more kids through pregnancy are choosing to have their family grow through adoption, sometimes specifically requesting special needs children who will need some kind of medical care once adopted. I'm glad you apparently agree with me that those people too are making a wonderful choice, despite your original statement that, "..I guess it's better to live a half-orphan than not to live at all.." JustMe, you are getting extremely defensive on this topic, and also digging yourself into quite a hole. I suggest you let up on your know-it-all attitude; I don't know how old you are but hope that in the years to come your thinking becomes less limited. But I won't count on it.. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: Adoption
#114683
06/15/05 12:35 PM
06/15/05 12:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
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Originally posted by Krlea: Just Me-
Your arguments are quite silly. Prove. It's easy to say offending things. No merit. Originally posted by Krlea: Every adopted child (when done legally) is given a caregiver or representative who represents their best interest. But when they are adopted internationally it's difficult to control. Representatives of their native country can help them with little - if anything. Originally posted by Krlea: Children are just that...children! Aren't they people? Originally posted by Krlea: Adoptive parents are searching for the best interest of that child or else the child would not be available for adoption in the first place. It's good when they are. But sometimes they are not. In the same country the rights of the children will be controlled better by officials. Originally posted by Krlea:
For you to claim that you are against international adoption in Russia shows that you obviously have no clue what the state of adoptive children are in that country along with the surrounding countries of the Ukraine and Khazastan (bad spelling). Kazakhstan, I believe. I really have no clue about adoption in Ukraine and Kazakhstan - but then, I don't speak about them. Originally posted by Krlea: Why exactly are you against adoption in Russia? I don't see any need.
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Adoption
#114684
06/15/05 01:17 PM
06/15/05 01:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
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Originally posted by AppleOnYa: and again it is up to the parent to provide the information and seek sources to have the child fully appreciate it. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: However, many parents who bother to educate themselves in international adoption do provide as best an appreciation as possible to their children of the country, language and culture in which they were born. What if they do not bother and seek sources? Do you still say the child will be deprived of nothing? That's obvious he will. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: Deciding not to become pregnant is just that...deciding not become pregnant (and I'm not talking about abortion, so nobody jump on that...I simply mean choosing NOT to become a parent through pregnancy). What are you arguing with? I just said that I, personally, would prefer to have my own children, regardless of any possible adoption. What enrages you? Originally posted by AppleOnYa: I'm glad you apparently agree with me that those people too are making a wonderful choice, despite your original statement that, "..I guess it's better to live a half-orphan than not to live at all.."). I think you did not understand me, because there's no contradiction in my words. I think that the child with only one parent can live very well, even though he's a "half orphan". It's better to live with one parent than not to exist at all, that's what I meant. Howewer, to adopt a child is a good thing anyway, regardless of having your own children, even many. These statements are not connected. Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
JustMe, you are getting extremely defensive on this topic, and also digging yourself into quite a hole. Why? I do not offend anyone here, steadily asserting that they are limited, without even a single attempt to reason such a statement. Why should I be defensive? I'm saying obvious things, and trying to clear myself from accusations in having opinions I never really expressed. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: I suggest you let up on your know-it-all attitude; I never claimed such a thing. There's no logic under this suggestion except your wish to hurt me in any way possible without a cause. I bear you no hostility, and never tried to use as a reasoning to my opinion anything that you might resent. Forgive me, Apple, but it sounds... Defensive. Originally posted by AppleOnYa: I don't know how old you are 27.
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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Re: Adoption
#114691
06/15/05 02:24 PM
06/15/05 02:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
OP
Mother of Dragons
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OP
Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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Originally posted by JustMe: Well, Afi, I think that every adoption, as every human life, is a unique case. I would be sad to know the reverse... Which proves that it's individual, as any choice. I beg to differ. Nationality and being proud of it, is not something we are born with, but something we are taught to be proud and protective of it. It is not in your genes, it is like a behavior you pick and has no worth over family. You are from where your loving family is. You are what you love, period.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Adoption
#114694
06/15/05 02:38 PM
06/15/05 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602 Yunkai
afsaneh77
OP
Mother of Dragons
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OP
Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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Originally posted by JustMe: [quote]Originally posted by afsaneh77: [b] You are from where your loving family is. You are what you love, period. You are what you love, I agree, but I wouldn't link your nationality only with your loving family. Children who have no families, love their countries, and defend them bravely, even if there were no parents to teach them do it. [/b][/quote]They are taught to do so. I wonder where we were without blood boiling songs dedicated to ones nation. And most often in those songs, they keep repeating names as father, mother, home, hometown, and family. That's how they teach you to like your nation and country for a good cause. But you don't have it in you. All you have is love for family.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Adoption
#114695
06/15/05 03:37 PM
06/15/05 03:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
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Originally posted by Krlea: [QUOTE]Originally posted by JustMe: As far as my information origins, I've done alot of research. [/QB] If so, why don't you tell what need do you see? I think that they could be very well adopted in their own country, there's no problem with it, people are even waiting in lists to adopt a child. If you choose to adopt internationally, why not a child from overpopulated China, or Africa, where the level of life is low, and it's not likely that orphans have much chance to be adopted at all.
keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
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