Snake, you summed it all up in that one sentence! The SAME people who are demanding that Flag Burning be allowed in this country because the Flag is ONLY a piece of cloth are the SAME EXACT people who were in an uproar about the charge of U.S. Soldiers alledgedy flushing a Koran down a toilet! They screamed that this was a travesty to treat a "holy book" in that manner! If the U.S. Flag is a piece of cloth to them, then the Koran should only be considered a stack of paper to them also! Hypocracy at it's best!
EXCELLENT POINT SNAKE!


Don Cardi

Snake you hit it right on the head. I could not agree more.

DS

Why, thank you, DC and DS! Y'all have made some excellent points yourselves. I believe that's my biggest pet peeve with the liberal mind-set: the inconsistencies. And yet, we're the ones always labeled "hypocrites." Go figure, man.

Very true.

DS

Actually I’m not religious so all “holy books” are no more than stacks of paper, or storybooks if you will. I’m sure that statement angers you because if you will make assumptions about me than I’ll return the favor and make one about you. Why is it always the religious crowd that gets so up and arms about the flag burning issue? I assume because they are used to following symbols of an idea more than the idea itself.
You used this statement in your argument Snake “Why not walk into churches and urinate on crosses?” see you are seeing religion and government in the same light. You are taught that religion or god is infallible but that is hardly the case when talking about government. Why do you think we have so many checks & balances installed in the government?
You will and have said that I don’t love this country and you are partially right. There are things that I don’t love. To love something unconditionally is blind. Blind love while a wonderful thought is hardly logical. I do love that we can have this difference of opinion and discuss such an issue but your dream America is not mine.

Snake, you summed it all up in that one sentence! The SAME people who are demanding that Flag Burning be allowed in this country because the Flag is ONLY a piece of cloth are the SAME EXACT people who were in an uproar about the charge of U.S. Soldiers alledgedy flushing a Koran down a toilet! They screamed that this was a travesty to treat a "holy book" in that manner! If the U.S. Flag is a piece of cloth to them, then the Koran should only be considered a stack of paper to them also! Hypocracy at it's best!
EXCELLENT POINT SNAKE!


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Again, these points all beg the question. In the first place it is absolutely certain now that our people at Guantanamo are pissing on the Koran and otherwise doing things to it which is offensive to the people incarcerated there. All the wingholes who got their panties in a wad over Newsweek are now hiding behind Anne Coulter's apron strings because the truth is these things are going on. The people comitting these wrongs are military and/or intelligence agents of the United States Government. Just yesterday, some general would not or could not answer Sen Leahy's simple question: how many detainees are there. There is absolutely no way of knowing if all of them are "terrorists" or not. We need to put them on trial and if they are found guilty, shoot them. If they are innocent, send them back where they came from. But it is insane just to hold them there. There should be open, transparent trials. Anyone who would do otherwise, does belong in nazi Germany.

The concept of desecrating a religious text by government employees, in charge of a prison camp, is very different than the concept of a citizen burning the flag in protest.

Furthermore, I dont think flag burning or pissing on the Koran are "right" things to do. If someone could prove to me that as the result of flushing a Koran some terrorist attack was thwarted, I could see the merit in it. If, on the other hand it is just more of the crap that has gone on in Abu Grahib and elsewhere, it is wrong.

Just because I dont approve of flag burning however does not mean that a citizen who wants to make a point should be banned from doing it.

The imminent collapse of the right wing in this country (which is going to happen faster than you can say "Bill Frist") is going to happen for the very same reasons the left wing ran into so much trouble. They have been in power too long, and they are now overreaching. They want to legislate morality whether it is in the Terri Schiavo case (check out the autopsy) abortion, flag burning, marriage, and just about everything else.

I watched those proceedings last night also. And I must admit that I admired Senator Joe Biden's line of questioning. He brought up some very valid points. However as he himself said, this is a totally different kind of war that we are fighting, one that we've never fought before.

Unfortunatley our fighting this "new kind of war" puts us in a position that forces us to learn as we go along because there is no history behind us to fighting this kind of war which we could use for reference.

But getting back to the Flag buring issue, as Snake said, why scream and hollar that the Koran is being dishonored and in the same breath scream and hollar that there is nothing wrong with burning the flag of your own country? You cannot have it both ways.


Don Cardi

DC I never said there was "nothing wrong" with burning the flag. I think it is "wrong." I also happen to think pornography is wrong, and I never read the stuff, or go to the sites or anything else. But I would not ban it. The courts of this country have repeatedly said that any law banning flag burning is a violation of the first amendment.
I do not believe the government should have any say over how people express themselves.

The government should have something to say when people express themselves in a way they insult others. Everybody must have the right to express themselves, but it can't be an insult to other people.

Although I think expressing yourself to the government is a different thing, for example the demonstrations about several subjects must be legal.

As you can see it's a difficult subject. The question is what is more favorable and what do you protect? "Freedom to express yourself" or "Right to be protected from insults"...everybody has it's own reasons, but mine is the 2nd one...

The government should have something to say when people express themselves in a way they insult others. Everybody must have the right to express themselves, but it can't be an insult to other people.


MM you have identified the problem. What is an insult to you or me may not be an insult to the next guy. Take a look at talk radio and Cable television....there are lots of people who make a living by saying insulting things. So the question then becomes "who decides what is over the top?" Whoever that may be, I dont want it to be the government.
As you can see it's a difficult subject. The question is what is more favorable and what do you protect? "Freedom to express yourself" or "Right to be protected from insults"...everybody has it's own reasons, but mine is the 2nd one... [/b][/quote]

But who else should decide it when it's not the government? And another question is: is it possible to decide that. I think it's completely out of reach. You can't qualify different thougts under 1 thing. As you said, what is an insult for me can be normal for you....

Frankly, I couldn't care less if you're religious or not. That's your business. My whole point wasn't about "religion," but your cherished "freedom of speech." Call the Bible what you want. I'm not accountable for what you believe... you are. So, please, spare me the "here's-a-Christian-I-can-shock-and-piss-off" approach, 'cause it won't fly with this cowboy, sport.

Anyway, as I said, my point was that liberals get all riled up when someone wants to exercise their brand of "freedom of speech" on one the liberals' sacred cows; yet when someone wants to burn a flag, those of us who love the flag are supposed to shutup and accept it and say nothing, all for the sake of "freedom of speech." It's just the same old double-standard sh*t that's so characteristic of the liberal mind-set. I'll give you a real example: PETA didn't give a damn about Palestinians blowing up Israelis until one day they decided to put the bombs on a donkey instead of a man. Then PETA gets up in arms! Now if that isn't some screwed-up priorities, I don't know what are. Suppose I expressed my freedom of speech by defecating on JFK's grave? I noticed you didn't say anything about that example. Or, what if I wanted to defecate on a member of your own family's grave? You still wouldn't care? Maybe that's the problem: y'all don't give a damn about anything except your own agenda. Your problem is that you guys have no middle ground for compromise. It's either "be like us, or go to hell." And yet you cry for "tolerance" among the conservatives. Puh-leeze. Sell it to the gullible, man.

By the way, if crosses and flags are nothing more to you than "symbols," then there's no sense in us even debating, because it's obvious you don't believe in anything. I understand, because of this post-modern relativism you've apparently been raised in. I probably wouldn't believe in anything either. But thank God I wasn't and thank God I do.

And I know our country has problems...but it's still the best on earth IMHO (no offense to my comrades). If you think it's that messed up, there are boats that both arrive and leave America.

Well, for one, desecrating a grave IS against the law, while burning a flag is not.

While I personally would not go out and burn a flag in protest because I am disturbed by the image of burning anything in protest, I do support the right to do so. This was a nation founded by those seeking freedom to express themselves. If you want to do so by burning a flag or your bra, as long as you don't bring harm to others, then I feel that I have to support your right to do so.

But that's the whole purpose of the amendment, isn't it? And as far as I'm concerned, it should be criminal. Killing a baby is legal, too. But try to cut down a few trees where some spotted-ass bird lives and watch the liberals rant and rave. Like I said, double-standrards.

Unfortunately :rolleyes: As for what you said Snake and the double standards, let me say thank you for not only opening my mind to your point of view but the great example you made with the Bible. I myself am a Christain (not sure if you knew or not) but earlier I stated that I was against burning the flag as I felt it was the government's way to try and censor people from expressing themselves. But I myself wouldn't want ANYONE urinating on a Bible or on a family members grave. You raise an interesting point my friend, thank you for helping me see "the other side."

Thank you, Irishman. Yeah, maybe I'm a dogmatic radical about this-or-that...but I at least try to be consistent.

As a matter of fact there was a big stink a few years ago about a religious symbol, I think it was a crucifix which was in a jar of urine. This was supposed to be "art." The debate was over whether the government should be funding that sort of "art," and not whether that "art" should be banned.

Freedom is about allowing this sort of thing to go on no mattter how much it offends people. I am a liberal, I am somewhat religious, and I find a cross in a jar of urine to be about as artless as it gets. But I would fight for the right of the individual who made the thing to be free to do so.

That's all I ever ask myself Snake. Consistency is a BIG part of my life. Unfortunately it's rarely displayed by many

I can't believe that such an august and expensive organ as the US Senate is wasting time with this.

While the country they are supposed to serve has massive working class poverty, a vast divide in wealth, spiralling defence spending, rocketing levels of gun violence and gun related deaths, an obesity crisis and the worst environmental record of any first world country, its over-paid porkbarrelling elected representatives debate whether or not its supposedly free citizens should be prohibited from doing something inconsequential to a piece of cloth.

God save America ... its legislators certainly won't.

Ah, but there's the double standard and inconsistency again, you see. The "N" bomb offends people, but isn't that freedom of speech? Using Indian names for ball teams offends some people. So does calling fat people "fat," the insane "insane,"
midgets "midgets," and some I can't even mention here because of our moderator's censoring (and I don't intend that to be an insult hurled your way, Geoff and SC...just making a point) etc., etc., etc. All of those I just mentioned rile up the liberal masses. Okay, burning a flag riles me up. So, why is their offense more heinous than mine? Please enlighten my "narrow" mind so that I, too, may be as intellectual as the liberal elite!

Well Snake as for that last part of your posting...... :rolleyes:

But I completely agree with you. Some of this "politically correct" crap has gone way too far. Apparently it is ok for a rapper to drop the N bomb, which is totally crazy. I call fat people "fat" and I call people who cant walk "crippled." It doesnt mean I discriminate against them, it just is what it is. My point has nothing to do with the "liberal/conservative" issue at all. My point is liberals probably do not get as riled up about people making fun of religion or burning the flag as conservatives do, just as conservatives go nuts over having to call short people "vertically challenged" or stupid people being called "differently abled." It is not hipporcitical to be offended by some kinds of speech, that is human nature. My point is that a broad range of offensive speech should be allowed.

Hey, but it's also "freedom of speech"!

Anyway, the bottom line is that I can see how anyone who is black would get offended by the "N" bomb (except, as you pointed out, if it's said in a rap song...I'm still working on that paradox!), and so on and so forth. But you see, you can't say I'm out of line for calling flag-burning a "crime," when it's something I (and many others) find offensive just because it's "freedom of speech." All of those other examples are also "freedom of speech" and perfectly legal to say. Yet those are viewed more contemptible than flag-burning by the liberl elite, so I'm an idiot for finding offense in what I value? If the liberals want a truly "just" and "free" society as they loudly bemoan, then they need to show a little more consistency and put away their double-standards.

I'm English, so this is an outsider's perspective.

The disturbing issue from either point of view has got to be the loss of freedom - it seems to me that both sides are arguing for or against the ban, not because they wish to deface the flag, or because they believe in total state control and censorship of unpatriotic ideas (I hope this is the case, anyway) but rather because both sides feel that their way is the way to protect freedom. I guess that in a seemingly unwinnable argument, this is the best outcome we can hope for?

By the way, colour me liberal, but I get the shivers any time I hear someone talking about their nation as if it was the Fatherland, and saying they want to purge it of undesirables to get it back to its pure state. (Page one of this thread) Just sayin

Snake, Of course you can call it a crime. That's your right. I would hope that any ethnic or racial slur is offensive. It's degrading and humiliating to refer to another human being in a derogatory manner, as if to say they are somehow inferior. However, freedom of speech is what allows folks like skinheads and the KKK march and rally and have answering machine messages talking about certain races and creeds in an absolutely disgusting way. As much as we talk about how worthless it is to protect the civil liberties of certain criminals or flag-burners. What about groups like the KKK relying on those rights and freedoms to pass along their message full of hate?

I was gonna post this earlier and reading the new posts above has reminded me.

I have to say this is a trickier issue than I at first thought. That is certanly a good example about the distinction people are making between pissing on the koran being unacceptable but burning a flag being a right. I'm with you Irish, I see from everyone's comments that it's not as clean cut as I would like to think. However...

1) My first point is that this is much like the issue of censorship. I think censorship is extremely dangerous, I abhor the burning of books and the withholding of knowledge from people. But does this mean I condone fascist websites and publications? I believe in freedom of speech, but does that mean I condone racially inflammatory public speakers and the spreading of fascist ideology?
I honestly have no answer for this. But I really feel that as dangerous as allowing such expression may be, I would feel a lot less safe living in a society where expression which was not pleasing to The Powers That Be is not permitted. I don't want to be an ostrich, as scary as raising my head above the sand may be.

2) My second point is that, political correctness aside, apparently it depends who's doing the dissing. It's like, black people can call each other the N word; fat people can tell fat jokes; gay people can tell gay jokes; I can take the piss out of other bisexual people; but if a white person, a thin person, or a straight person tried to do the same it would be generally deemed offensive. I've never quite figured that one myself, but that's how it goes.

If a muslim burns an american flag, or an american pisses on the koran, yes, this is offensive. It is a hostile, disrespectful action. But as DonT said, if it is a muslim protesting by desecrating the koran, or an american protesting by desecrating a flag, maybe we need to consider that it might not be any of our business?
If for some reason unknown to man or beast I decided to take a shit on the Union Jack, yeah I would offend certain people. But I kinda feel entitled. I would not, however, crap on the Irish flag, because that's not mine to crap on! It's not my symbol to deface.

Last point in this encyclopaedia of blather... and this one may get me shot. I don't mean to offend, I barely dare type it... But you know, freedom of speech and all that...

If an american really feels strongly enough about America to set their own national flag on fire (some of them must, or why would you have to ban it?) I'm not sure that legislating against it is going to be any more use than putting a bandaid on a haemorrage. Just like killing one warlord will not solve the problems that turn men into warlords. Prohibiting forms of protest in the States will not remove the discontent that causes people to protest, just as IMO blowing up terrorists will not remove the problems that move terrorists to protest.

*If anyone wants me I'll be hiding in a nuclear bunker in the Antarctic*

JC, Some good points there. I agree that censorship is a frightening precedent to start, because you really can't be sure where to draw the line. It can get very scary, very quickly.

I'm not sure how much actual flag burning is going on that we really need to make a law about it. I don't recall ever seeing a flag burned. Maybe there is rampant flag burning going on that I am not aware of. Perhaps the politicians see more of it, since many protestors go to Washington, and perhaps they do it there.

There must be more important issues that need time and effort, no?

Thanks Babe Yep, I think you may be right about that!I agree with The Dr. too - to an outsider, this point of view seems to make a lot of sense.

Dr. and Josie,


I am curious to know what the laws are, if there are any, about burning the British Flag? Can either of you give us some insight as to your laws or even your sentiments about an act like this taking place in your country?


Don Cardi

Hiya Don C Hmm... I don't know about the law but I am aware that the English flag (white with a red cross, as opposed to the Union Jack) has recently become somewhat a symbol for unsavoury nationalism. In areas of racial tension (between whites and asians) the white people have taken on the English flag as a symbol of purism, using it to taunt the asians and make a statement about what it means to be British :rolleyes: So as a result, this symbol of St George now carries a mixed message. When I see it flying, I cringe.
Under normal circumstances, although I'm not particularly patriotic, I would like to see our flag flying. I like to see the Union Jack on Buckingham Palace and other monuments. However, I could also quite happily burn the flag of St George in protest against its misuse. It is the misuse I'd be attacking, not the symbol itself. And holding the icon dearer than the principle it represents, seems to me to be a mix up in priorities

Somebody genuinely burning the Union Jack out of a hatred for Britain... as I said above, it depends who's doing it and why.
If it's some idiot trying to be offensive and different because the only way they can distinguish themselves is by being anti-social... Well yes, that is downright offensive. If it's a member of the IRA protesting against the monarchy... It hurts but it's their right and I'd rather they set fire to some cloth than blow up civilians.
If it's a refugee protesting about the way they've been screwed over by our fascist immigration policy, then power to them