I never said that he hates Homosexuals. [/b][/quote]Thats good you didn't say that. His most reverent songs are called hymns. :rolleyes:

(Everybody duck .... a bolt of lightning is coming my way).

See, this is why it's good that make sure religion is kept out of public eyes. Could you imagine a Senate hearing with Senators talking about lines in the Bible? That is the freaking day I move to Canada.

Why are you insulting me because I believe in the Holy Bible?

Pretty damn sure, seeing how I'm israeli and we study the bible in school here.

The bible says, and I quote "he who sleeps with a man, should be killed"

Do you believe in that, mignon?

SC, Remind me not to sit to close to you at dinner, just in case that lighting bolt is delayed.

And, for the record DC, I never said that you said that God hates homosexuals. You said that God hates sin. In my opinion, He doesn't hate at all. God is only about love. Like I said, that's my interpretation.

"Pretty damn sure."

Pretty sure is not being totaly sure.

And anyway you are speaking from a Hebrew prespective. Of course you are applying what is written in the Torah, aka the old testament.

But I am pretty safe to say that Mignon is speaking from a perspective of believing the new testament. And the belivers in Christ are taught that the new testament takes precedent over the old, and that the laws of the old are no longer applicable because the son of God died on the cross to forgive all sins.

So this is why you two are going at it this way. You, being a Hebrew, are still waiting for the Messiah to come and therfore do not believe in the new testament. Mig, being a believer of the new testament, believes that Christ died on the cross to forgive all sins which make the old laws meaningless.

So please lighten up a bit.


Don Cardi

Maybe I should be afraid of sitting next to you. Knowing your famous Sicilian temper, I might not make it out of there alive when your done with me! j/k


Don Cardi

Well, I don't know about any part of the new testament saying "you know that law about gay people? it's invalid now"

Ok, so jesus died for our sins, how does this change god's law regarding homosexuality?

You are right DC in that post above. And thank you.

So basically you are saying that Christians only believe in those parts of the Old Testament that fit their belief system, not that "the laws of the old are no longer applicable...."

In other words, what it's convenient for them to believe.

Surely the 10 Commandments still apply.

And if we assume for the moment that the O.T. does say something about killing jomosexuals, who's to say that doesn't still apply as well?

Where is it written in the N.T. what does and does not astill apply from the O.T.?

It doesn't there are scriptures in the N.T. against homosexuality.

I think there are so many sectors of religion that everyone just takes the parts that they feel apply to their religion and just use that in their life. I consider myself a religious person, although I would never claim myself to be an expert. I can just go by the teachings I've been following for the past 30 years. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, and praise God that he did. I just don't believe that the New Testament cancels out the Old Testament, so to speak. Jesus forgives us our sins, but it is not a guarantee that all will have a seat on the right hand of God. You must be a believer, and if you truly believe in him then you will cast out your sins. The Ten Commandments were written in the Old Testament. Do they no longer exist? It is very true that God loves the sinner, but not the sin. Jesus befriended Mary Magdelene, even though everyone told her she was no good. He forgave her her sins, but also with the promise that she would "Go and sin no more". That's not to say that we are never gonna sin again, because we are all mortal, and we all do. But I just don't believe if we keep slapping Jesus in the face by committing the same sin over and over and over, when we know that it's wrong, then this shows that we have not taken atonement for ourselves. I'm sure there will be dozens of people here to dispute my beliefs, and that's fine. We all were brought up in our own churches, and I feel that if we are true believers, then what difference does it make that we're different "brand names" so to speak. It's just in my upbringing I don't believe that the Old Testament goes away. Both books are the word of God, and should be cherished. It should be used as a tool to see how man lived when they had no Messiah.

:rolleyes:

If you are Hebrew and believe in the old testament, and the old testament only, then you still believe in the laws that God gave in the old testament.

But if you believe in the new testament, then you believe that those laws are no longer applicable because Christ took all sins upon himself in order for them to be forgiven by God. So the old laws of the old testament are no longer used.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you.

I am just trying to help both you and Mignon understand where each is coming from and that because of the different beliefs of both of you, there really is no validity in arguing the issue with each other.

Don Cardi

Lets agree to disagree on this subject. And move on.

Damn jomosexuals! They are running around spreading their jomosexuality. When will it all end???

That's funny...I mean, you're a liberal, I figured you're really into that kind of thing (fiction, I mean).

I still don't understand this O.T. - N.T. stuff, and the part about the laws of the O.T. being no longer applicable.

I mean, I understand what you're saying, but certainly there is a lot in the O.T. that Christians believe, for example the story of creation (as presented in the Book of Genesis), or The Ten Commandments (as presented by Cecil B. DeMille).

So my question is, how is someone supposed to know what "no longer applies", and what still does?

And that brings me back to the issue of "Does the Bible Call for Death to Homosexuals"?

Well, according to what I found here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh3.htm

which has many translations of the Bible, including the King James version (That's the one that Christians believe, right?)

The verse below is from Leviticus 20:13

"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

So,

Is this one of those laws that is "no longer applicable", and, if it is, how are we to know that it is?.....And

Do those of you who believe so literally in the Bible believe that Homosexuals should be put to death?

As for Catholics, the Church has been given (by Christ himself) the authority to let us know.

I'm not such a literal believer in the Bible, but after the New Testament I assume charity should prevail over any other consideration.

This is turning into a religious debate as to what one believes and one doesn't, do some take what only suits their lives for convenience or do some take everything, do some only use parts of old, or of new.

This is what I did not want to happen. It was not my intent to try and get into debating ones personal religious beliefs.

I only tried giving the two members here who were starting to get into it with each other an understanding and idea of where the other one was coming from based on their backgrounds.

So I choose to now stay out of the religious debating part of this topic, because only hard feelings can come out of debating of what one thinks is right or what another may think is wrong when it comes to a persons religious beliefs.

Sorry, but I'v seen this movie 1000 times.


Don Cardi

Just so there's no misunderstanding here, I'm not trying to debate whether a person's belief system is right or wrong.

Since the existence or non-existence of God can never be proven either way, it's rather pointless to debate the question, anyway.

AFAIC, people are free to believe or not believe whatever they wish, and I absolutely respect their right to do so, regardless of how I personally may feel about what they believe and what I believe.

I'm simply trying to understand some of this.

Not being at all religious, this idea about the NT superceding the OT, and the laws in the OT not being applicable anymore is new to me.

Asking how we are to know what from the OT still applies and what doesn't is a fair question, which, I believe, Lavinia answered.

Enzo, how can you quote the bible for what YOU want to agree with and then in the same breath say it is wrong on a subject that you don't agree with? If you believe in the bible, then you believe in it as a whole and not just believe in what is convenient for what suits you.

You've accused the catholic church of being hypocritical based on the fact that you feel that they do not adhere to what the bible teaches, and yet in theory you are doing the same thing.

A person who picks apart what they choose or choose not to believe from the bible is the same as the muslim extremist who picks and chooses those verses from the koran, or the klu klux klansman who picks and chooses those verses from the bible that suit their justification for killing people.

No different.

You either accept what your religion's book teaches on a whole or you don't accept what it says at all. Regardless of whatever a person's religion may be.


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]You said I have to accept the bible as a whole, or I'd be like an Islamic extremist.
But now you're doing the same thing.

You say you only live by the NT, cause Jesus died for it.
Yet, you're keeping the good things from the OT
(ten commandments, ...), but you refuse the bad things like "kill those who commit the act of being gay".

Plawrence made a very good point about this, and then you stop debating, because you normally don't debate about religious affairs. Yet, you did that for 2 pages, until you started to 'lose' the debate. I know this sounds like a personal attack. Maybe I didn't totally understand your point, but I found this very odd.

And I still want to ask how that we know God hates the act of homosexuality. I know it is said so in the bible, but that could also be written by someone who wasn't enlightend by God. I mean, the whole of Christianity is about love and being good, as SB already said, and a line saying "those who have gay sex must be killed" is somewhat contradictive, no?
It is already 2000 years ago, the Christians were oppressed by the Romans then, and so many could've gone wrong.