Following on from our discussions on what might happen to Osama Bin Laden it might be interesting for us observers to watch what goes on in Saddam's trial, which opens today in Baghdad.

We must remember that this is not your average trial as it would be known in the UK or US. He is being tried by the Iraqi Special Tribunal, basically a court specially set up to try Saddam. However seven others face the same charges. Though you may hear that he is being tried under international law, it's actually a mixture of international law and Iraqi law (as I'm sure you will hear his defence make a big point of). He does face the death penalty which is not usually an option under international law. He does not have to be proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the usual standard under international law), the five judges only have to be "satisfied of his guilt".

Learning from the mistakes of the Slobodan Milosevic case, he is not being charged with generic crimes like "crimes against humanity", "genocide" or "war crimes". He is sepcifically charged with ordering the murder of 132 men in the village of Dujail in July 1982 after a failed assassination attempt. The prosecutors believe that there is more chance of a conviction on this type of charge i.e. one specific incident, than crimes committed over a long period of time.

Also in the unlikely event that he is acquitted on these charges, prosecutors are working on twelve other sets of charges, so he potentially could face twelve trials.

That's the background now on with the show.

i cant think of a just punishment for him...to live in a jail---to be housed, clothed and fed with iraqi or national money is more than he afforded to his "criminals" (who came no where close to the cruel acts that he commited) and is too good for him and to be put to death seems an easy out for all his crimes

good thing itz not in my handz

I'm glad that his own people are prosecuting him and putting him on trial. This way the people of Iraq that he tortured and murdered for so many years will give him the punishment that they think he deserves. Its only right that his fate is in the hands of those that he abused.


DS

I caught a brief portion this morning. Interesting (and appropriate) that he was in a cage (of sorts). Don't know the specifics, but I guess it's standard there. They said, if found guilty, the penalty is "hanging".

TIS

Did you see how arrogant and uncooperative he was? The judge asked him what his name was for almost 5 minutes. Saddam kept saying you know who I am. Strike One.


DS

Does anyone know if Court TV will be carrying this trial?


Don Cardi

DS, this is going to be one of the main points of his defence case i.e. that he is not being tried by Iraqis but by the Coalition as the Special Tribunal was set up by them. It appears that Saddam has watched the Milosevic trial and is following Milosevic's tatic of making answers to even simple questions take as long as possible

And he had the balls to plead not guilty :rolleyes:

Mignon... I doubt he has much to lose by pleading not guilty.


I dont understand why they started it and then adjounred it until November 28

Actually that was a stupid question. If that is the standard procedure, then so is that procedure.

A stupid question by who? The judge?


Don Cardi

A stupid question by who? The judge?
Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Yes DC, I was referring to the judge. It is not like an ordinary trial where the judge and the jury are unaware of the person being tried. This is a special trial meant only for saddam. What was the point of asking his name in the trial. Wasn't it obvious, unless he was interested in knowing if he is known by an alias or something like that. Still doesn't make any sense to me.

That's not totally true, but don't you think that Iraqi's won't be capable of being honest?? They will be misled by hatred, and that's not the point of a trial.
I think the Americans should trial him.

The crimes that he is standing trial for right now are crimes that he committed against the Iraqi people. If the country of Iraq is to become it's own democracy, then it's people, those whose families were killed by Saddam, those who were tortured by Saddam, must be the ones to bring him to justice for those crimes.

And be honest here Enzo, if America had decided to bring Saddam to trial and prosecute him in an American court of law, you would be the first one, well maybe the second one, posting that Bush had no right to capture him and try him in his own courts. You would be posting that Bush had a personal vendetta against Saddam and that is the only reason that America is holding him and charging him with crimes in the American courts. You would be claiming that he was found guilty becuase Bush wanted him guilty. You would be accusing us of all kinds of illegal things.

Our decision not to try him under our own court system, and instead let the Iraqi people and courts try him for the crimes he committed against them, was the right decision. The only logical and legal decision.


Don Cardi

I'd be the first one.

And I'd be right. What crimes did he commit against any Americans that would justify his being tried in an Americn court?

I'd be the first one.

And I'd be right. What crimes did he commit against any Americans that would justify his being tried in an Americn court? [/b][/quote]That's my point. If he's committed any crimes against Americans, it would be under Geneva laws, and therefore he would then be tried in world court for violating those laws. A trial in his own country, where he's commited crimes against the people of that country, is a justified trial.

Don Cardi

Maybe I misunderstood you.....

From your comment to Enzo about "be honest here" and "you'd be the first (to complain about Sadaam being tried in an American court)" I kind of inferred that you would take exception if someone did say that, otherwise why say it?

No, actually I took exception to his original comment.....

.....because that would not have been justice for the Iraqi people. And if we did hold the trial, as he suggested that we should have, then I'd have to think from his past history of how he's viewed our nation, he would have then bashed us for holding the trial ourselves. Another words I feel that when it comes to whatever our country does, he just will find fault, no matter what. Read his past posts.

And Enzo, please do not take this as a personal attack on you, for it is not my intention. I come to this conclusion based on your past history of bashing America and it's policies in your posts no matter what we do.


Don Cardi

Okay, I see.

First of all, you're right when you said I wouldn't agree when they trialed him in the USA. What I would like, is to see him trialed by Americans in Iraq. Then the Iraqi people would have him close, they know they are a bit involved then. Maybe the Iraqi's can even assist the Americans during the trial. So sorry Plawrence, I don't agree with you.

The reason why I don't want the Iraqi's alone to trial him, is that I don't think they can be objective. The war, the end of the regime, ... it's not so long since all that ended. They will be very, very biased, especially when it's a Sjiit or Kurdish judge.
The trial should be honest, and I value that more about the fact that a trial by Iraqi's would give the world the opinion that Iraq is a democracy where the people have autonomy, while in fact Iraq is not a democracy right now.
Nevertheless, both an American court, and an Iraqi court would give a very 'big punishment'. Death penalty or lifelong prison...

About the USA bashings: don't think I was very picky on the USA themselves, more on the current president and how he is doing right now.
I am a left socialist, and I really can't agree with the libertarian economic policy Bush is doing, with his rightwing ideas, and with his agressive foreign policy. Meanwhile, he isn't very social in the own country.

I don't say any of these things is radical (except for his religion maybe), but they are very different from my points of view.

And it's not only America: I criticize a lot of countries, including my own. I don't criticize my country as much as the USA, but I do criticize it. The reason why I only say here what's wrong about the USA, is clear, I think. Except for some Brits, a German, an Argentinan, an Iraqi, an Irani, and some Dutchmen, everybody here is American.

So I could very well criticize the economic policy of Angola, but I, and many here I assume, just don't know much about that...

I'm a sick bastard. Forget the trial. I'd peel his eye lids off.

Let me play devil's advocate on this...

He killed 10,000 Kurds and probably a couple thousand others, so let's say 12,000 dead.

His main reasoning is he killed people who he saw as posing a threat to his state and national security. In order to preserve his nation, he gassed the Kurds to keep them from terrorizing Iraqis.

This happened years ago and NOW the world does something? Hmmm...

Bush sent troops to Iraq, killed 20,000 Iraqi civilians in the process of protecting USA's national security.

While were talking about mass genocide that happened years ago, what about what the Russians did to eastern Europe? Huh, c'mon UN and ICJ? Millions dead! Yet nothing happened in response.

What about the free city of Danzig that was looted by the Russians and then its entire treasury given to Poland in violation of rules set down in the UN charter? Danzig was a creation of the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations. The UN Charter swears to protect League of Nations mandates and states created by Versailles....

Ooops!

Basically the ICJ and UN are full of themselves and will turn a blind eye on a problem they don't want to deal with.

Saddam trial is a show trial. He'll get executed anyways and the damn trial is worse than Stalin's fake trials.

Did anyone catch a part of Sadam's trial today? I was watching a little of it this morning, and a lady victim gave some horrible testimony. Later I heard that Sadam got mad, saying he didn't get to shower or change his underwear in three days :rolleyes: . He told the judge to "go to hell" and that he wasn't coming in tomorrow. Like he has somewhere else to go.

Man, I'm beginning to think this whole trial is a big joke. Either that or they sure do things way differently than we do. I have know idea how their legal system works but it looks more like a circus. I really have no idea how this will turn out. There doesn't seem to be any guidelines or control.

TIS

TIS- I think this is a case of "If you knew you had only 24 hours to live what would you do?" He knows he is going to be found guilty and sentenced to death, so he will do everything in his power to be defiant OR to make this such a joke of a trial that maybe global pressure will force it into a mistrial

i think this IS all a joke, honestly. to think that some would want american's to be at all involved is just nutty, as pointed above he didn't do anything to american's..hence why there shouldn't have been a war in the first place.

it was interesting to read a few days ago an iraqi citizen say "right now he (saddam) looks like the strong leader we need for this country." he also went on to sue his contempt for the new politicians and what not. i don't know about you guys, but the more i read the papers the more im seeing alot of iraqi people supporting him. and as much as i think what he did was horrible, im thinking that this trial is not being run properly and needs a mistrial.

Saddam should be nuked

Saddam IS tried by americans in Iraq right now!

I think he should be tried by the International Court in The Hague, now it's just a show trial which even makes Saddam popular among certain groups.

The basis of real justice is an independent court so no one can later claim that it was an unfair trial.

Even for a person as evil as Saddam Hussein, yes.

Too bad the ICC in The Hague is not recognized by the US nor Iraq (or North Korea so the US is not in very good company here) as it is by the UN and over 150 member States.

I think it's a shame that the US left a great opportunity to show the world how things are done in a civilized country* , now it's just a farce.

* = independent court with expierienced, well educated independent judges, a proper defence, etc.

All that will now happen is some funny TV moments, some pics for the tabloids and he will get the death penalty without even having to go through the shame of hearing all counts or the humiliation of being jailed like the common criminal he actually is. Don't forget that Saddam himself is happy to get executed for that would mean a heroes death in his eyes...such a shame he should be jailed and gang-raped for the rest of his life (hopefully a long time) knowing that everyone he cares about knows that he is undergoing this humiliation day in day out. This would also mean no access to his heaven.

wow,

sadastic?

well unfortunatly i don't feel he should get the death penalty. as someone stated above, he's done no worse then most public leaders the last 200 years. what he did was wrong, and i disagree with it. but it was not for anyone else to have gotten involved. when the iraqi people had gotten tired of his ways, they would have eventually rebeled. you doubt me? but isn't that what happened to malochovich.

Forget what's P.C. (puh-leeze!). Cuff him, make him kneel down in back of the courthouse, put a gun to his temple, and fire. Or, Turi's suggestion would suffice: peel his friggin' eyelids off (for starters). Either one works for me.

Strap him to the nuke that we accidentally drop when our planes are leaving.


DS

E Lucky R, you're a great contribution to these boards.
Blijf zo doorgaan!