In that case, it's becoming a bit of a shambles, embarrassment, humiliation, mess, whatever; but that's a moot point, as I'm sure you'd agree with me that the war now is no "war", but a chore, where, like I said, nobody wants to lose face and admit to their mistakes.

Your use of the word innocent is erratic and volatile to say the least, Cardi; it pops up whenever you try to justify this war, as if it's your protective shield. Innocents were killed on September 11th! Oh no! "Innocent" people, in the way you claim them to be, are killed everyday. Imagine if everybody was as bloodthirstily avengeful as you...

I admire anybody who stands by their own beliefs in a respectful way, as indeed you, for the most part, tend to ("I'm older and therefore wiser than thou" digs at Patrick notwithstanding). But you also tend to contradict your own views a lot, too. You don't carry through your beliefs in any kind of consistent truth. How can we be claim to be different to animals by being careful enough not to use carpet bombs, and then claim we wouldn't give a terrorist any kind of appropriate hospitality? Because, you'd claim, "Osama bin Laden is not a human being". Even so, there are some vegans, then, who would protest against the killing of this "animal". I'm getting off point.

There's an argument in there for another thread, about what constitutes a human being. But I'll say this; Being a "bad", morally vile person doesn't make you an animal in the technical sense, just in a metaphorical one. You're still human. Just a(n arguably) "bad" one. But perhaps your argument stems from a different perspective to me, driven by a geographically afar want to prove oneself to the whole world that you are the best and that's that; anybody who gets in the way, Die die die! Unless you're innocent.

And innocent, as I've posted before, is such an iffy, subjective term. Innocent of what, exactly?

But yeah, I get what you mean; nobody in the Twin Towers deserved to die the way they did and for the arbitrary reason they did. Does that make them innocent? Probably not, I'd argue.

Thanks for reading,
Mick