Well Ice, while I think that the money issue may have a bit of validity... The issue of Mike whacking Frankie so that Roth didn't have too, i believe is crazy. It would be much easier to just whack Frankie than to ATTEMPT to whack Mike any day of the week.

Like you said, its about the money. If Roth kills Mike in Tahoe then Frankie is sure to fall, but Roth misses out on the 2 million.

Instead he makes Mike believe it is Frankie, so Mike whacks Frankie, and then Roth lures Mike and his 2 million to Havana. EDIT--and in Havana Mike is for sure a dead man until suddently the Batista regime falls



(Instead of taking time to call other's theories crazy you could first go ahead and give your own thoery eh? )

Ok, this part of the movie to me always seemed to leave tremendous pieces of the puzzle for the viewer to figure out on his/her own.

My conjecture is the following (and I would appreciate criticism on this):

First of all, I presume that the two would-be assassins found in the ditch were going to be murdered anyway. They had no way of telling whether or not they had killed Michael Corleone since they sprayed the bedroom with bullets. Thus, regardless of the outcome for Michael, they were going to end up in the ditch with their throats cut.

If it is safe to assume that Roth was indeed behind the hit, as Michael presumed he was, I would assume that Roth wanted the gunmen left as "bait" for whoever might be directing the family affairs after the shooting. Since the gunmen appeared to be "hired out of New York", this would present the appearance of Pentangeli's involvement to the Corleone family, misdirecting possible vengeance from the Corleone's.

Thus, if Michael lived, he might strike out at Pantangeli, or even let the Rosato brothers do it for him, which would be exactly what Roth wanted. Also, Roth probably figured the "new york" gunmen could misdirect Michael long enough to cause Pentangeli's death before Fredo squealed about his conversation with Ola, should Fredo indeed grow a heart and do so.

The other eventuality - Michael's death - would truly be a strange predicament. Who would assume control: Hagen? Fredo? Since Hagen was 'out' of the dealings with Roth (by Michael's orders) Hagen would be in no position to assume it was Roth behind the hit. Hagen did, however, see Pentangeli acting drunk and disrespectful at dinner, and heard Pantangeli give Michael an earful of insults during their business meeting. The "new york" men would probably be a link causing Hagen to go after Pantengeli. Again, Roth would benefit. If Fredo were somehow to have control, perhaps Roth could fool him into thinking it was not actually him behind the hit that night.

Lastly, I believe the assasin's assasins escaped by boat. The complex seemed to be relatively secure along all its land borders, but had a large border along the water which would make a convenient point of invasion. It would take a while to fire up the compound's boats and chase after anyone in the water. Also, due to the time period, the lighting equipment on the boats would make such a chase near impossible at night.

In the end, it seems like Roth put a lot of thought into striking at Michael.

I never understood how one looks like "out of New York." Maybe someof you New Yorkers can enlighten me.

I think Roberto that there is alot of license in the Trilogy. I wondered how two guys could get close enough to the window to be effective and then traverse the compound without getting sited and then killed without that being sited or heard or whatever.

Your conjectures about Roth throwing suspicion on Pentangeli seems logical. But I never got the impression that Michael had any suspicions about Pentangeli. I don't think he would have been fooled and I don't think Roth would have thought he would be.

Even if Roth didn't think Michael would actually be fooled, I think Roth was experienced enough to take contingencies into account. Thus, Roth probably considered the possibility of a failed hit, and that two known Roth associates in the ditch would leave Michael little choice but war.

first off... Welcome DonR. you stated "If Fredo were somehow to have control, perhaps Roth could fool him into thinking it was not actually him behind the hit that night."

but DR, that's just it... Fredo didn't need to be convinced that it was NOT Roth. HE KNEW... and not only KNEW... had something to do with it (either directly or indirectly). And maybe his involvement was indirectly, which I have come to accept. In which case, Fredo may decide to go after Frankie, but I don't believe that he could really "out-fight" anyone; considering his dimwitted dameanor (sp)

"I never understood how one looks like "out of New York." Maybe some of you New Yorkers can enlighten me."

Indeed. And this is one of the reasons why I think Rocco is one of the traitors.

Probably the way the guys were dressed.

Fredo may have had something to do with either providing cover for the would be assassins or even in their murders because when Deanna is taken from her house she is screming they were "right outside my window."

As for Pentangeli, I don't think Mike ever really suspected him. Right after Pentangeli has his rant at Mike, Neri specifically asks Mike whether there is anything he should do about Frankie, and Mike says let him go back to New York, he's an old man who had too much wine.

wow!!! great detail that I never noticed before. Thanks DonT! I never knew what was wrong w/ her... just thought she was acting out again or something

While watching The Saga yesterday, I noticed something that I never noticed before, and this is why I have quoted our late and great friend Plawrence :



To support what Plawrence said above about it not being Fredo, in the scene after the hit attempt on Michael, Fredo's wife is running around screaming and if you look closely you can see that one of the men trying to grab Deanna is Fredo himself. So that in itself would make it almost impossible for Fredo to have killed the hitmen himself.


Note : In another post in this topic, someone said that they noticed that Rocco was running around limping. I believe that in the book when Clemenza is contemplating who to use to kill Gatto, it talks about a guy in his ranks named Rocco Lampone and tells about his having a permanent limp as a result of being injured in the war.

DC, you are absolutely right. Rocco was injured during WWII (performing acts for strangers) and was left with a limp. I always wondered why FFC and/or the actor chose not to have him limp until this scene, though. At least I can't remember Rocco limping in any other scene. Unless it's the one where he's eating the Chinese food.

In a deleted scene in GF, you see Rocco galumphing up Clemenza's driveway while he's polishing his new '46 Cad.

I can't believe for a minute that Fredo would have the gravitas to kill anyone and especially, especially with a knife. I also son't understand why one would want two assassins.

And yes, both the novel and GFII note Rocco's limp.

IF Rocco was involved and Michael knew or had any inkling about it... I believe Michael applied "friends close, enemies closer" kind deal in regards to keeping Rocco around(similar to Roth and Michael)... AND... the reason why Michael didnt fear Rocco trying to kill him after the failed hit was because... Rocco was a businessman... the business "deal" had changed when attempt failed.... AND I believe that he allows Rocco to redeem himself with Roth assassination/kamikazi hit

Redeem himself for what?

For his bad "earlier" busines decision.

So Scarfather, from what you are saying, is it your asertion that Rocco was the "inside" guy for Roth and that he killed the assassins?

Ciao DC -

Actually I have no idea... just threw the thought out there as to how Michael handled Rocco if he suspected he could be involved - hence the "IF"

I think the story is swiss-cheesy there and a "hole"... we just have fun "going there" LOL

So then Scarfather, who killed the assassins?

It was Kay! She killed them with that look that she gives Michael when she's sitting on the couch holding Mary on her lap!

I am not sure... but when Michael says "killed by someone close"... I think its more of a reference to the betrayor in the family(Fredo) in other words... he could be wrong about killed by someone close... but right about Fredo... I actually think that the hitman were killed by design... Roth send 2 patsies and 2 buttonmen.... buttonmen take care of patsies

Just watching GF2... Rocco is watching Fredo right before Michael goes to talk to him.... so if Rocco was involved... Fredo may not have known

Rocco was not involved.

If Michael even suspected him one iota, there is absolutely no way that Michael would have let him hang around for as long as he did. Michael would have never taken that chance of having Rocco around to hurt him if he thought that Rocco was involved.

The Corleone family was big; there were quite a few people close to Michael and to "us" as Michael says. It could have been anyone at the compound. There's no more chance of the traiter or killer being Rocco than anyone else who was close.

But I kind of agree with Babe that it was Kay's look that killed them

This is like the age old question how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?


Boy: Mr. Turtle, how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
Mr. Turtle: I never made it without biting. Ask Mr. Owl.
Boy: Mr. Owl, how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
Mr. Owl: Let's find out. One... two-HOO... three..
Mr. Owl: Crunch!
Mr. Owl: Three!
Narrator: How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
Narrator: Crunch!
Narrator: The world may never know.

The right quote for this question.
Scarfather, although there haven't been any posts on this subject recently, the issue of who killed the Tahoe assassins is probably the longest-running mystery on this board. Though some have posted interesting theories, I don't believe anyone has ever said that they're certain.
Some people a long time ago theorized that Rocco had some role in the shooting, and went on the "suicide mission" to whack Roth to "repent." I think someone may actually have found an earlier script treatment (there are many) that supported the idea that Rocco had some role in the shooting. My view is the same as others' here: If Michael had an inkling that Rocco was involved, he'd have been dead then, or soon thereafter. I also believe that Rocco took the kill-Roth mission as a desperation move to restore his standing in the family after Neri's relentless climb to push him and Tom aside.

There are literally dozens of earlier scripts, abandoned scenarios, deleted scenes, etc. You have to assume that they were abandonded, deleted, not pursued, etc., because Puzo and FFC thought better of including them in the final cut--which is what counts.

In the end I think it was Manolo, the gardener.