Why? My one friend has been telling me to start taking creatine, but I haven't taken anything yet.

It's been too long for me to tell you the specifics of it but ALWAYS talk to your doctor before taking any supplements. Creatine is very easy to overdose on, which can lead to heart problems down the road. Being that there are no side effects of it you will never know if you are taking too much of it.
I don't know your friend but most people who start body building want to take creatine and whey protein but they don't know how to use it properly. You are what 17/18? All supplements like that do are make up for what you are not getting from your diet, you are young so you should not have that many defincies (depending on your diet). Whey protein is fine (again talk to your doctor first) but Creatine is more advanced than Whey Protein and your friend should be talking to a doctor too. Don't ever put anything into your body unless you know everything it does, side effects, and you have had it okayed by a doctor.

edit: not heart problems I think it's kidney and liver problems. Also, about 99% of the studies done on supplements are done through the companies that make them. So yeah as I've said talk to a doctor and make sure you undrestand everything about it and what side effects to look for etc.

Patrick...don't take ANY supplements. You're too young.

It's nice to see that you want to take care of and discipline your body...just do the excersize and eat right for now. A multi-vitamin might be fine too if you absolutely feel you have to take something. But that's all you need.

Don't start with the supplements...for reasons already pointed out.

Apple

Golds Gym. Get yourself a trainer! You will never regret it.

DMC - What about this schedule?:

Sunday - All upper body plus 15 minutes walking on treadmill
Monday - 45 minutes walking on treadmill
Tuesday - All lower body plus 15 minutes walking on treadmill
Wednesday - All upper body plus 15 minutes walking on treadmill
Thursday - 45 minutes walking on treadmill
Friday - All lower body plus 15 minutes walking on treadmill
Saturday - All upper body plus 15 minutes walking on treadmill

How long would it take to see noticeable difference on abs and arms if I were to start something next week? I don't go to a gym but I have exercising equipment in my house.

No matter how much you exercise DV, those veins will still be popping out of your ass.

DV as I said to Enzo doing arms and abs is pretty useless without doing the rest of your body. Abs only comes from dieting. You want to work your entire body because different exercises hit different muscle groups in different ways. Doing "arms" without working chest and back will leave your biceps and/or triceps looking worse than they do now (I have no idea what yours look like but hopefully you understand what I mean)

Pat, I didn't have a chance to really look at your schedule I will look at it later but I saw 7 days doing SOMETHING so I will say not good. I'll look at it later and give you pointers.

"Gym??" What's a "gym?"

Used to be be a few years ago but stopped going

As I said before you need at least 1 day of doing nothing. I personally do not like all lower body and all upper body splits, you can't put the same intensity into every body part, so they aren't as useful (they are useful for getting over plateaus though)

Here is a sample of a good one:

Day 1: Back, Traps, Abs
Day 2: Quads, Delts, Calves
Day 3: Chest, Hamstrings, Abs
Day 4: Biceps, Triceps, Calves
Day 5: Off

Here is an example of one that uses light and heavy days (this is a Ronnie Coleman split who is a freak of nature so I wouldn't advise doing this one but it is an example):

Monday Chest, triceps, calves, abs
Tuesday Quads, hams
Wednesday Back, biceps, calves, abs
Thursday Chest, delts, triceps
Friday Quads, hams, abs
Saturday Back, biceps, delts, calves
Sunday Rest

Here is another (although I don't like bi's and tri's on the same day):

day 1 - biceps, triceps, forearms, abs
day 2 - quads, hams, calves
day 3 - off
day 4 - chest, delts, calves
day 5 - back, traps, forearms, abs
day 6 - off
day 7 - off

There are also Push and Pull workouts where you work Chest and Bi's on the same day and then Back and tri's on another day.

Does that mean I'd have off days six and seven too?

And do you know a site that labels all the muscles so I know what you are talking about? :p

No Pat not necessarily. You could do a 6 day split, where you would have 2 days off in between and would start "day 1" on "day 7" hopefully that makes sense. I realize you want to train everyday but you REALLY need to realize that training 7 days a week is VERY VERY VERY bad for you. The ONLY reason you are seeing results right now is because you just shocked your system. It was not used to moving weight and all of a sudden it is so it has to work to compensate for that. You will never again in your life see the same gains you got the first 2 months of training. Muscles do not grow when they are being trained, they grow when they are resting.
I will give this break down (my own breakdown others can disagree but I'm sure they won't by that much) Your overall look and health are determined by:
72% Diet
10% genetics
10% rest
8% training

There is nothing/very little you can do to overcome genetics (symetry of your 6 pack, peak of your bicep is all genetics) Diet is the most important thing, if your muscles do not get the proper nutrition they will not grow. REST as I've been saying and training is very very little (8% is being very generous) Not talking Mr. Olympia's here but most normal/enthusiastic body builders will say something like "I can miss a workout but NEVER a meal"


The Lines from Top to Bottom
Neck
Traps (trapezius)
Shoulders (deltoids)
Chest (pectoralis)
Triceps (triceps brachii)
Biceps (biceps brachii)
Forearm (brachioradialis)
Abs (rectus abdominis)



Lines from top to bottom:
Forearm (brachioradialis)
Biceps (biceps brachii)
Shoulders (deltoids)
Triceps (triceps brachii)
Traps (trapezius)
Lats (latissimus dorsi)
Middle Back (rhomboids)
Lower Back
Glutes (gluteus maximus and medius)
Hamstrings (biceps femoris)
Calves (gastrocnemius)

Also Pat, being that before you were (I brought it up) talking about supplements. 1) supplements are just that, they should be taken to supplement your already existing diet. The ONLY supplement that you COULD need at your age is whey protein (TALK TO A DOCTOR!) you need 1-2 grams of protein per pound of body weight of protein (thats for say an amateur body builder), which is very hard to do on diet alone. Whey will give you 45-50 grams of protein in one serving. Whey protein is found in tuna fish and I want to say steak (not at all sure about either though) tuna fish and skinless/boneless chicken are the best sources of protein though (which at your age you should get enough protein in your diet in ratio to your goals and gains).

Now something I know you don't want to hear but you are going to hear it anyway :p I would ask your friend number one if he has any idea what creatine does and the side effects of it. But WHEN you talk to your doctor about taking supplements you MUST tell him that you drink, whether it is once a day, once a week, once a year. You need to know how every supplement reacts with alcohol and how to either not drink or how to cycle your supplements when you plan on drinking (i.e. don't take it 2 hours before, 12 hours before, or 2 days before drinking). Supplements are tested on people and in studies to react with normal bodies, alcohol is not part of the normal body so these supplements are approved and all it will say is "don't take with alcohol" but you need to know the side effects and what it can lead to. Especially if you are at a party and pass out and the paramedics say what did you take and all you say is "supplements" you need to know what supplements, the ingredients and the amount you took.

Alright, I think I'm going to start working with your:
Day 1: Back, Traps, Abs
Day 2: Quads, Delts, Calves
Day 3: Chest, Hamstrings, Abs
Day 4: Biceps, Triceps, Calves
Day 5: Off
Day 6: Off
Day 7: Repeat from Day 1

How many reps do you suggest each day for such? Surely it will be more than I was doing since I'll be doing much less each day? Also, can I still walk on the treadmill each day?

I'd rather see a:

Day 1- on
Day 2- on
Day 3- off
Day 4- on
Day 5- on
Day 6- off
Day 7- off

But your body will dictate how you can do it. If you are in pain do NOT train. Pain after a day is your body's way of telling you to stop.

No do not use the treadmill everyday, your body needs at least 1-2 days of flat out REST, that means no intense work thats when your muscles heal, grow and get stronger.

For each body part such as biceps and triceps you can do 3 exercies, 3 sets of 6-8 reps for growth or 10-12 reps for strength and fitness. You should be using a weight that only allows you to do 6-8 or 10-12. Larger muscle groups like back and chest you can do 4 exercises, 3 sets 6-8 reps or 10-12.

1) There was a saying when I was into it "check your ego at the door" Yeah bench pressing 300 pounds looks impressive, but its not so impressive when you drop it on your chest. You should start out with very low weight until you learn the proper motion of the exercise (ever see Karate Kid? Forearm and hand together make hammer and its more power or something like that) if you don't do the exercise right it will not give you gains and will injure you. There are probably 50 guys at your gym benching 400 and curling 100 but they too started out benching 100 and curling 20.

I really suggest you talk to the "resident pro" at the gym or even a trainer and maybe they can do a better job of getting you to believe in a 4 or 5 day split with 2-3 days off I don't think you truly understand how commited I am to 2-3 days of Rest, as are most bodybuilders. Just so you know, the Ronnie Coleman exercise routine was right before Mr. Olympia (they go all out for that) The first workout was Jay Cutler's after Mr. Olympia (you can not just go from training everyday back down to 4, thats why its a 5 day split it lets your body gradually go back). The third was the normal workout schedule of Lee Priest. Those 3 are World Class body builders.

Day 1- Back, Traps, Abs
Day 2- Quads, Delts, Calves
Day 3- off
Day 4- Chest, Hamstrings, Abs
Day 5- Biceps, Triceps, Calves
Day 6- off
Day 7- off

I can try this, but can I still do the treadmill on the days I'm already at the gym?

And what do you mean that I can't just go from everyday training down to 4 or 5? I actually took today off. So would it be bad if I started my 'Day 1' tomorrow?

It was good to take today off . Every few weeks, I think I said 12 but that could be wrong (old age) you want to take either a few days or a week off. That gives your body time to rest and you can go into your full routine with as much energy as possible.

On to your questions: 1) yes you can do Treadmill on the days you are there. Depending on your goals though, if you are looking to gain mass/muscle then only 1-2 days of treadmill because you want to keep as many calories as possible. if you are looking to lose weight and fat then 4-5 days of treadmill (doing treadmill for 5 days is okay as long as its not weight training 5 days) I would also see how treadmill fits into your leg exercises, you will have to decide whether to do it first or last depending on how well your exercises go.

2) when I said everyday training I meant the Mr. Olympia everyday training, those guys go ALL OUT before a major competition and what happens is your body creates enough energy to fuel you for those 7 days (although as I've said you increase risk of injury) your body does not just "shut off" when you decide to go down to 4 days. You will still have all of that excess energy so depending on how long the competition is (if its a week long that might be enough of a break to go back to 4 days) if its only a weekend competition then they will go to a 6 or 5 day split to allow their body time to readjust.

Now when you get your training schedule together (exercises you are going to do) you might want to switch those up during your 12 week cycle. Read back about what I said about muscle memory, if you keep doing bench press, declined barbell pres and then inclined fly's your body will adapt. You might want to do fly's first so that your body doesn't know and can't adjust to which way you are training them.

Overtraining is very serious, it is always better to start off slow and then increase to say a 6 day split after a few months if your body can handle it. If you've ever been bowling before you know the ball has a thumb hole (sorry I was into bowling as well ) so we had a saying when drilling those holes "you can always take more out, you can't put back in" It's sort of the same thing, you can INCREASE your workload as your body tells you but you can't necessarily decrease because the only way to know you have to decrease is usually an injury and that's no fun.

I'm sure there is more I could say (could you tell?) but if you have any questions just post them here.

Thanks dude. Can't wait to hit the gym tomorrow.

Oh yeh, I guess another thing I should have told you: I fractured my back when I was in second grade and it will never fully heal, so I try not to work it out that much, but I was definitely feeling some pain in my lower back area where I fractured it, when I was working out my neck last week.

I still don't understand what you mean by working out your neck
I have no idea what to tell you about your back, if you feel pain you should always stop. Definitly talk to a doctor about that though, just because a bone was broken doesn't mean it CAN'T be worked theres just DIFFERENT ways of working it. I would say to leave back off of your workout until you talk to a doctor and you know exactly what you can and can not do.

I've been working out for several decades. I'll add some straightforward advice:
1. If it feels good, do it! The biggest boost you get from working out is mental. Your body will soon tell you if you're overdoing it, and your mind will process that info into a program that you feel comfortable with.
2. But, be disciplined! If working out is important, don't find excuses not to work out. I knew plenty of people who joined the company gym at work, but always found a reason not to go--usually because someone wanted to go out to lunch. If it's important, blow off the lunch and do the workout.
3. There's a real tradeoff betweem joining a gym vs. acquiring equipment and using it at home. Joining a gym provides an incentive to use your membership, but a disincentive if you have to travel to get to the gym. Having equipment at home solves that problem, but makes another: How do you get past the fridge and the TV to use your equipment? I can't answer those questions for you, except to say that, if you join a gym, make sure it's very close (less than 5 minutes) from your home or workplace.
4. If you decide to acquire your own equipment, put an ad in the local paper saying, "weights and exercise equipment wanted." You will soon get plenty of calls from people who invested in equipment and never used it, or have kids who were on high school teams and went off to college, leaving parents with dust-collecting, space-consuming stuff. They'll probably give it to you if you take it off their hands.
5. Yes, you can, and should, work out every day--as long as you vary your workout so you're not using the same muscles every day in the same way. You should do some form of aerobic workout every day (running, swimming, stationary or road bicycling, stairmaster, treadmill). You can weight-lift muscle groups on alternate days--e.g., biceps and shoulders one day, abs and thighs next day, etc. Just avoid lifting the same type of weights for the same muscle groups every day.
6. The single most important factor in a successful workout program is repeatibility: can you do it when you want, where you want it? Study after study has proven that the farther or more difficult it is to get to your workout location, the less likely you'll do it. Same is true for type of exercise. For example, don't choose road bicycling if you live in places with lots of bad weather; or swimming if the local pool is constantly taken over by kids and swim teams.

Sorry Turnbull I have to disagree with #5. I think you increase risk of injury too much by working out everyday and don't give your muscles time to heal.

This is from Trish Stratus' website:

This is about Ronnie Coleman

Was this posted in the real-life mafia thread? :p All in good fun TB

Sorry, Pat... disregard everything DMC has said... I really thought he had a reliable source.... :p

Well, that's easy!

Put the gear in front of the TV.

Wanna watch Oprah? Fine! Do it while on the treadmill... watch for as long as you can walk!

Alright DMC, I took your advice and talked to a lady who works at my gym tonight. She recommended taking 2 days in between working muscles, saying that if I worked biceps tonight (Tuesday), that I should not work them out again until atleast Thursday night, so this is what I think I'm gonna do.

I'm definitely gonna take one day off a week and I'm going to switch between upper body and lower body workouts each day, so it will give my muscles the 48 hours rest. Whaddya think?

48 hours is fine, it's still a break in between.

I don't like Upper Body and Lower Body workouts because of intensity levels. I also think that constantly giving your muscles only 48 hours rest (or 72 or would it be 96 for the one day you take off) will lead to problems. If you talk to this woman again tell her what you plan on doing, to me it's too much. If you can put the same intensity into everyone of your exercies for an upper body day then you aren't getting an effective workout.

I can tell from your wording that you really want to train everyday and we definitely (plaw?) differ on that, what I will say is be careful.

I love it. Actually gives me a reason to not drink and smoke cause I look at the calories in booze and I'm like fuck that after just burning them all off. And I'm staying away from the supplements too.

you should be keeping track of your diet as well. McDonald's, Burger King and the like should quickly be cut out of your diet. Tuna Fish and Boneless/Skinless chicken breast should be added.

Next time you go to your doctor ask about Multivitamins. They make multivitamins + (blank) in almost everything now a days. A good example is + iron, because some people have iron deficiences. You can't go wrong with a multivitamin because most of what your body doesn't need it will excrete. But DON'T buy anything with a + after it unless you talk to your doctor (better to talk to your doctor before taking anything though)

Word. My diet is pretty good. The only fast food I ever eat is Arby's and that's usually only once a week. For breakfast, the only cereal I eat is Special K and a few days a week I might have eggs instead of cereal. I eat a load of tuna. I eat that about three or four times a week. So good.

Mmmmm....interesting thread....here are my 2 dead presidents :

1) First of all, you must make a distinction - that is to say, what are you going to the gym for?- only then can you build your plan appropriately. You say you want to 'grow' chest? - then you're in for "expanding" your body....which in many cases is not THAT fruitful, since it really depends on the person....if you've got a very thin upper body, you could shape it, of course, make a nice traingle, muscles here, muscles there, but dont expect it to expand that much...many have dreamt that, only to be dissapointed. (Bruce Lee, for example, I guess you've seen him shirtless here and there, he's the example of a thin body with lots of muscles....if thats what youre after, then build a program specifically for muscles...or you can combine both "muscles" and "expansion" but you have to make that choice before you make the plan.

2) As DMC mentioned again and again, rest is OBLIGATORY. Theres no need for 72 hours but 48 is a must - that is to say you must work on ALTERNATE days. NEVER 2 days in a row.
That should give you 3-4 days a week to work out. Why must you rest every 2nd day you ask? because if you dont, you might as well skip the entire idea of working out. You want muscles? well muscles do not develop while you're making the exercises. Its while youre RESTING that muscles build themselves. You go to work daily at the gym - you'll achieve less than someone who works on alternate days. That is a fact, not a suggestion I make.

3) Gym is good; however, it is the extra. The most important muscle you should develop is the heart, that is to say- getting in shape should be the first priority, more important than any muscles you work on at the gym. Whats that I hear? TREADMILL??? - avoid that crap as soon as possible...people go on and say "man, im in shape, been running/walking on the treadmill for 2 hours dude, im in such a great shape!" -- well, i've been taking a few of these "athletes" for a little run outside...they barely made 2 miles before they puked their hearts out. Treadmill is good for 1 thing : to warm up before you exercise your muscles....but dont think for a second thats its any replacement for running / swimming/ etc....you must seek fitness outside the gym.
Considering what you wrote about the back problem...I HIGHLY recommend swimming. Swimming is the most profitable sport you get...not only will it get you in good shape, but it will also build your body and expand it, and its the best cure for back problems, better than any belts, exercises, or whatever methods you know of.

4) Nutrition. Fish is great. A good proportion of meat is also good. You must eat fruits and vegetables as well. Do I sound like your mother? maybe because sometimes mothers are right.
Llisten to me : make that a plan of at least 2 fruits & 2 veggis per day. A good one is :
Orange/Kiwi (vitamin C - ESSENTIAL)
carrot/green pepper (iron/b12)

Perhaps the most important food for gym nuts is...potatoes. Yes, potatoes. Eat it, again and again - and I dont mean french fries. You must get the carbo's (carbohydrates) and potatoes will preserve them in your body for quite a while. Other products like spaghetti are also recommended, however, spaghetti's carbo's will burn themselves, so the result is not as satisfactory as potatoes.

Eggs - 1 or 2 per day - and make that HARD-BOILED. I know, I know, you probably prefer the omelette, or the fried egg, sunny and everything, but I must tell you that the best you could get from the egg is by eating it hard-boiled - thats again a fact, and not a suggestion. Yes, I know Rocky swallows his eggs directly from the fridge, and I still say hard-boiled.

Of course, you probably eat sweets and sugars n stuff - my recommendation is to eat them AFTER your work-out session, your body will need the sugar then. If you wonder what to eat before, and before should be at least 2 hours before, I suggest a yoghurt & banana.