Wow, I like that.

This man lived in the USA, he went to flying school. And if I'm not mistaken, he came from a rich Middle Eastern country. Furthermore, he didn't actually killed people, only plotted together with others who did.

Moussaoui's great ambition was to be a martyr for radical Islam.

Living men make rubbish martyrs.

"America, you lose," he said - well, I don't know about that, but he certainly lost, and so did the radical Islamic cause - they cannot claim that the "American infidels" murdered one of their "great believers".

Executing him would have given those Imams plenty of ammunition.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Enzo Scifo:
Furthermore, he didn't actually killed people, only plotted together with others who did. [QUOTE]

Yeah, he ONLY plotted with others who did. :rolleyes:


Don Cardi

This man lived in the USA, he went to flying school. And if I'm not mistaken, he came from a rich Middle Eastern country. Furthermore, he didn't actually killed people, only plotted together with others who did. [/QB][/QUOTE]


In the U.S. justice system, Moussaoui was part of a plan to kill others which is known as accessory to murder. When the plan called for killing as many people as possible (which is what these radical Islamists want), and over 3,000 innocent people paid with their lives for this plot, then this guy should be killed.

Furthermore, if he wasn't acting so stupid at the flight school, it's a safe assumption he would have been on one of those hijacked planes which would have completely solidified his guilt.

You say he lived in the U.S. - that doesn't make him a U.S. citizen. He either was here as an illegal immigrant or he had false documents allowing him to be here. Whatever it was, he was deceiving the U.S. as to what his true intentions of being here were.

I'm looking for the story, but did you hear the Moussaoui asked the judge if he could have another trial? He wanted to change his plea or something? Anybody hear that? Judge told him, that's not how they system worked....Denied!!!!!


TIS

Yes TIS, I read that story this morning. Scary thing though is that the Judge said No to him, and then told him to file an appeal with a higher court! Imagine that? This bastard is part of one of the biggest plots to attack our country, he is given a fair trial under our system, confesses and then avoids the death penalty. Now he has the right to file an appeal to a higher court?

This is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post that I made about his receiving life instead of death. As long as he is allowed to live, there is always the chance, no matter how slim it may be, that he can get off on a technicality or an appeal.

If he was sentenced to death, that would have been it. No appeals, no chance of ever getting out. The world would be that much of a better place with one less terrorist scumbag in it.


Don Cardi

I must have not gotten all of the story. I didn't know he was told to appeal to a higher court. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll get the appeal though.


TIS

Everyone has the right to appeal.

Whether or not he wins his appeal (very doubtful) is the question.

Administering the death penalty in order to remove a person's right to appeal a verdict is about the worst reason I ever heard for having the death penalty.

You talk abour how he had a fair trial, DC, but if he wins his appeal on a "technicality", doesn't that mean that his trial wasn't fair?

And winniing an appeal doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that he simply gets released.

He'll be held without bail agian, tried again, and undoubtedly convicted again, so what's everyone so worried about?

The best thing we can possibly do is accord this guy every single right that a person accused of a crime in The United States of America is entitled to, which shows the rest of the world that our system - democracy, with everyone entitled to the same basic rights - works better than any other.

Yeah, so it costs money to keep this guy alive through the appeals process.

Big deal.

Think of the hundreds of billions we're spending in Iraq right now to promote and foster democracy.

Keeping this guy alive while he goes through the process is money well spent if we want to spread democracy throughout the world, IMO.

PLaw,

I understand that everyone can appeal, but the way I understand it (and I only heard a breif news story, didn't find an article),is that he wanted to appeal simply to change his plea. Can you appeal simmply to change your plea? Usually one appeals because they feel they didn't get a fair trial, new evidence or something like that.

TIS

I dunno...if he pled "guilty" the first time and has good grounds for wanting to change to a "not guilty" plea, like if he can show that his counsel advised him to plead guilty the first time and his counsel was incompetent, and/or he wanted to testify on his own behalf and his counsel advised him against it or something like that, then maybe he can.

I really don't know.

If he pled "not guilty", though, and wanted to change to a "guilty" plea, I can't imagine how that would be grounds for an appeal or a new trial.

Just speculating here, of course.

Yeah, he deserves a fair trial, like the one that he and his cohorts gave to everyone that they were responsible for executing. Who do the 3000 people that died on 9/11 see for their appeal? :rolleyes:

F**K HIM! They should have excecuted the scumbag.


Don Cardi

Well again, I'm only going by the brief tidbit I heard on tv, but he told the judge something like, he "now" believes he can get a fair trial (whatever that means ).
If this is the case, it makes me wonder if he even talked to a lawyer before asking for an appeal. I would think he would, and then the lawyer would take it to the judge no? But then the lawyer, one would think, would surely advise him of legitimate reasons for appeal.

TIS

How did we know if the guy was guilty or not until he had his fair trial?

You seem to be implying that he wasn't entitled to one (Yeah, he deserves a fair trial, like the one that he and his cohorts gave to everyone that they were responsible for executing), or am I misunderstanding something here?

Well, I'll be VERY surprised if this prick actually gets a re-trial. I mean, what grounds does he have anyway for one?

Anyway DC, keep your pants on. Besides, if he does ever beat appeals and released from jail, Super Vigilante DJ will be there to save the day for us!

Do you know what he pled in the first place? I really didn't follow the trial or anything.

Besides Double J, I said all the "cool" vigilantes were fictional.

WTF is so cool about Brown anyway? I mean besides him being a reported nutjob of a terrorist. Really DJ, you equating terrorism with vigilantes? Man, I can't believe it!

PLaw,

No, I'm not saying that at all. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial! If, in any case, with any one, it turns out the trial wasn't "fair", then by all means he should be retried.

I'm simply saying that Moussaoui "said" he now believes he can get a fair trial. He is entitled to it, and I can only assume he had one. I am asking/questioning the legitimate reasons for asking for an appeal. Can you simply say you want to change your plea for guilty to not guilty and get an appeal?

TIS

I'm not implying that you said anything that I disagree with, TIS.

I know you think the guy was entitled to a fair trial. I was just asking if you knew what his original plea was.

PLaw,

He pled "guilty" but now says it was a complete fabrication. I found the story here. I can't copy/past the link for whatever reason, but here's the story:

TIS


Moussaoui tries to retract his plea; 'too late,' judge saysBy Nadine Elsibai
Bloomberg News
WASHINGTON - The judge in the Zacarias Moussaoui case yesterday rejected an effort by the convicted Sept. 11 conspirator to withdraw his guilty plea and go to trial in an effort to prove he was not part of the 2001 terrorist plot.

In a motion filed by his court-appointed lawyers, Moussaoui also described as "a complete fabrication" his trial testimony that he and convicted shoe-bomber Richard Reid were supposed to hijack a fifth plane on Sept. 11 and fly it into the White House.

U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema in Alexandria, Va., said federal court rules barred defendants from withdrawing a guilty plea after sentencing. Moussaoui, who pleaded guilty in April 2005 to conspiracy charges, was sentenced last week to life in prison.

Moussaoui's motion, filed Friday and released yesterday, "is too late and must be denied on this basis alone," Brinkema ruled.

The defense attorneys said in a footnote that they realized defendants were barred from withdrawing a plea after sentencing. But they said they were filing the request anyway "given their problematic relationship with Moussaoui, of which the court is well aware."

In the motion, Moussaoui said he was "extremely surprised" when the jury did not sentence him to death.

But after "reading how the jurors set aside their emotions and disgust for me and focused on the law and the evidence that was presented during the trial," he said, "I came to understand that the jury process was more complex than I assumed."

Well, that's that then.

He was accorded all of the rights he was entitled to.

Case closed.

Yea, answered my question, once "sentenced" you can't change your plea. So, I assume it can be changed before sentencing, allowing for an appeal.

I've always found the law, trials very interesting.

TIS

Exactly. And I was being sarcastic in saying that he and his cohorts gave a fair trial to all those that they were responsible for killing and plotting to kill. I was trying to say that he deserves the same kind of treatment that he gave all those that were murdered. So I'll spell it out for you - He deserved to be killed. No rights, no second chances. None of those that were killed were given a second chance, were they?

Civil rights my ass. As far as I'm concerned he doesn't have any.


Don Cardi

Now, DC, calm down!

I know it is difficult for people of your stripe to understand, but we have this thing called a constitution, and we have laws and procedures that need to be followed because we don't want to be like the Taliban or the North Koreans. In our system everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and everyone is entitled to a trial. I understand that we have had a president in office for the past six years who shares your lack of understanding of the rule of law, so perhaps it has slipped your mind.

Unlike you, that man is also a liar and a war criminal...but I digress.

He pleaded guilty, went through a sentencing trial, and now wants to change his pleas. He received every right under our constitution. Now he is trying to make a mockery of our system.

Perhaps if more people of my stripe were in charge, or were lawyers, then people like this scumbag would never walk the face of the earth or harm another human being ever again.

But unfortunately we have too many people of your stripe in our legal system, and our security and well being is continually being compromised because of this "we need to treat them fairly" attitude. These people declared war on us, and are threatening the future for our children. And as far as I'm concerned, if you attack or attempt to attack my family and take away their lives, then all bets are off.

But then again the people of your stripe don't have the understanding that this is it, that it's them or us.

Tell me something, who do the people who were crushed, blown up and burnt see about having their civil rights protected? What court do they appeal to so that they can have the chance of living a life again? Did Bin Laden and his people consider the civil rights of those that they murdered? Hell no. But what Bin Laden and his followers did consider is that there are people like you with that bullshit "let's give them a fair trial" attitude out there and they know just how to work the system that you seem so willingly to want to allow them to be part of. :rolleyes:

And what the hell does the President have to do with this conversation about this issue?


Don Cardi

And what the hell does the President have to do with this conversation about this issue?


Don Cardi [/QB][/QUOTE]


DC the president has absolutely nothing to do with it. Just yanking your chain.

Of course he is trying to make a mockery of our system, what would you expect him to do? They aren't going to let him change his plea, and he is off to Colorado where I hope he rots in darkness and annonymity for a long, long time. The reason he is going there is precisely because of the wrongful taking the lives of the victims whose civil rights you were talking about.

I'm not gonna argue the death penalty issue with you here.

If you believe in it, then he certainly deserves it. If you don't believe in it, as I don't, that's another argument altogether.

But if we deny the guy a fair trial as you would do, DC, then how do we know he's guilty?

Don't get me wrong here - I'm not saying he deserved anything more than he got.

I assume his trial was fair and he doesn't seem to have any grounds for appeal so, as I said, "Case closed"

But don't you think he had to get that trial in the first place?

We can't very well give someone a trial and then if they're found guilty say "He's guilty, so he didn't deserve a trial."

That doesn't make any sense, does it?

He's been given a fair trial. He confessed and also confessed that he'd pretty much do the same if he had it all to do again.

He's guilty.

Anyway, he won't get the new requested trial. We've heard the last of him.

Those jurors (might've been only 2 or 3) who voted to spare his life will probably come to regret it.

Apple