its 10 am and i havent been to bed yet so im not thinkin fully. but as to the fredo thing thats just my opinion and everyones entitled to theirs. i just think it makes some sence. now i see your point and you point out alot of facts to contradict that it was fredo BUT what if those where tossed in by FFC to throw off people thinking that it was fredo, as i said earlier making him seem innocent.

dont get me wrong im not sayin your wrong, but not saying your right either because quite frankly nobody knows whos right or whos wrong, for all we know we both could be right on certain aspects of the issue. there isnt enough evidence on my part to say it was him true, but there isnt enough rock solid evidence to say it wasnt him. as with most good crime stories the most obvious explanation may not be the right one.

And what purpose would FFC have in doing that?

Look...as stated there is really NO definitive answer as to the role Fredo played in his betrayal to Michael. Also, there is no explanation given in GFII as to who/how/when those drapes were opened. So any theory anybody comes up with is worthy of discussion and I'll agree, nobody can be truly considered 'wrong'.

But to validate the discussion (and make it more interesting)...all 'theories' should be weighed along with corresponding circumstances & statements in the film(s).

Apple

PL and TB - I understand what you're saying. Of course Paulie and Carlo had to know. And you would assume Fredo would as well. My problem with that is that both Paulie and Carlo were hard men. Paulie was a button and Carlo was capable of beating his pregnant wife, which is obviously as low as you can get. They both had that capacity for ruthlessness that I believe Fredo was missing. Although I could see Fredo, in his quest to make a name for himself, trying to insert himself into some back-door negotiating, I can't picture him cold-bloodedly setting up his brother and his wife (with the open drapes, there was an excellent chance that Kay would be shot as well) to be murdered. I just can't picture him deciding to make Anthony and Mary orphans.

SB, everything you said is true. It is hard to imagine Fredo consciously setting up his brother for a hit. But, as the Don said (in the novel): "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold." Few people hell-bent on revenge wait for the dish to cool off. Others hear what they want to hear, as long as they think they'll get their end. Roth and Ola may have "misled" Fredo in some way, but he was ready to be misled.
IMO, a key to Fredo's attitude comes in the boathouse scene. The anger, rage, frustration and resentment against Michael really boiled over in that scene. Viewing that scene again, it's not so easy to think of him as "sweet," "good-hearted," "harmless."

so by that rational turnbull your stating that part of what i said of him being seen as innocent playing a major role in him being the drape guy is true

TB, I agree that Fredo was extremely angry, but I still can't picture him tip-toeing around Michael's bedroom. Even if you could imagine him angry enough to set up Michael in some way, I can't ever picture him putting Kay or the children in harm's way, which is what he would have done by opening those drapes.

I think that most of his anger, incidentally, is with Vito. He is angry at being passed over, which is anger at Vito. Although Michael and Tom embarrassed him at the Vegas meeting, his anger seems to be at Vito for not even considering him "don-worthy". Michael, although younger, became his father figure, and the anger got redirected. Also, Fredo adored his father (brought out more in the book than in the movie, although his reaction to Vito's shooting is unbelievably touching), so he probably couldn't be consciously angry at his father.

Uh, it's a little hard for me to figure out exactly what you mean from the above, scarfacetm...BUT:
Roth would have been interested in Fredo not because he looks "innocent" or "sweet" but because he was close to Michael and had info Roth valued. Roth would know that Michael would figure out, sooner rather than later, that Fredo was the traitor, but by then it wouldn't matter. In fact, if the machine gun attack on Tahoe had succeeded, it would have been all over. At that point, Roth would have won, and it wouldn't have mattered to him whether Fredo's role was found out or not.
Fredo's "sweet" and "innocent" appearance is meant to appeal to us, the audience. It enhances the drama to find out (to our enduring horror, as attest all the posts on this subject), that Michael's very own brother was a traitor. It makes his betrayal so much more significant to us than, say, Carlo's or Paulie's.

thats what i was saying earlier that we see him as sweet and innocent BUT that doesnt mean anything that we dont see. fredo is the only one that could get close to michael due to him being his brother. kay knew fredo so she wouldnt think twice about seeing him there. as for him saying he didnt know, he may not of knew fully the extent of the hit but that doesnt mean he didnt know there was a hit because as far as i see it he knew and michael would find out if he had lived that could explain whye he was upset when he told ola that he lied to him. also the fact that fredo appears to be an idiot to us makes us assume that he isnt capable of organizing the hit.

First of all...just because someone is your brother-in-law doesn't make it necessarily fine & dandy that he's walking around in your personal residence, near your bedroom. Also, Kay would be accustomed to the fact that because of the business her husband is in, there might be bodyguards and other such employees in strategic areas the home...ESPECIALLY during a party the size of Anthony's Communion, where most of the family and guests (including Fredo) would be outside most of the time. So it would actually make more sense that, with Fredo's unwitting help one of Roth's men could get into the home and await the right time (whenever that was) to open those drapes.

Second...what do you mean about Fredo not knowing 'fully the extend of the hit'????????

If you're directed to open the drapes to your brother's bedroom so that there can be a clear shot at him and as someone's stated the very real possibility of his wife getting killed/injured as well...then to what 'extent' do you think the hit's going to be?? Are you suggesting that he thought they would simply shoot to injure not to kill? And how would that help with 'the negotiations'???

Just asking. Like I say...if you're going to have a theory, fine. If you can continue to back the theory so it can still hold water...then that's even better.

Apple

True...but let's keep in mind that in addition to 'sweet & innocent', Fredo is also presented as 'weak & stupid'...not only by Michael's description but various instances throughout both films. Even in The Godfather Fredo makes one blunder after another. While it's true we find it shocking that it's Fredo who turns out to be the traitor...instances throughout the films show that he is just weak and stupid enough to be appealing to Roth as a dupe.

And yes, we do see in the final boathouse scene that Fredo was not so sweet and innocent that he wasn't capable of finally reeling off at his kid brother for whom he was stepped over.

But that still doesn't make valid the assumption that he realized there would be a hit and opened the drapes to make it so.

Apple

you cant say he had no clue what was being planned he may of not knew every detail but im sure he knew enough

As to Michael being killed?

Nope...I don't think he had the slightest clue and so far, nothing anybody's presented on this Board has made it worth even considering.

Obviously he knew SOMETHING was bein planned, since he helped out in some way that was never explained. But a hit on Michael...no, I don't think he realized it would go that far. He was lied to, kept for the most part in the dark, used, duped.

Apple

what i ment by extent of the hit was more of he figured they would go just for michael which may have been the case i dont think he ment to put kay in the way and why wouldnt they want to kill kay either. as to him knowing something, yes he had to know something even someone who aint bright like him would know something otherwise he wouldnt of helped them and with the michael hit he knew something was against michael but the real question in this case is what did he know

And again I don't think even Fredo in all his stupidity and jealousy would knowingly go along with and assist in a hit on his brother. But let's just say he did...if opening the drapes to their BEDROOM, how could he NOT assume that Kay might be in danger as well?


Please define what you mean by 'know something'! You mean know of the hit? If that is what you mean...tell me what makes you so sure when he swears later to Mike he DIDN'T know of the hit, and before that complains to Ola that he was lied to?

Well, of COURSE he knew 'something' was going on against Michael, and of course he 'helped' in it. That is why he was approached by Ola in the first place...that is what makes him a TRAITOR !! What is never made clear (and never will be) is exactly what Fredo was told and in what way he was asked to help.

But 'know' that it was a hit? Open the drapes to make it so?

Personally...I don't think so.

Apple

he wouldnt know kay would be in danger because how is he supposed to know when the hit would happen or when she would be in there.

as far as knowing something... im sure he knew of the hit but i dont think he knew everything of the hit. he may have known they were gonna do a hit on michael but i dont think he knew how they were gonna do it or what exactly they would do

And how is he supposed to know when the hit would happen or when HE would be in there?

It's their BEDROOM. Kay would be at risk for being in as much danger as Michael even if she weren't the intended victim.


Which again leads to the questions how are you 'sure' he knew, when it's never directly indicated in the film...and what do you mean by 'extent' of the hit.

A hit is a hit. The intention is to have someone killed. You can't go much further than that. Where's the 'extent'? You going to bring up Kay again? See above.

If he didn't know 'how' or 'what exactly', then why would he be opening the drapes to their bedroom?

I don't think Fredo knew it was gonna be a hit.

Apple

a hit is a hit yes true but there are many ways it could of been carried out. for all fredo knew they wanted the drapes open to spy on him for a bit to know his moves.

fredo aint the brightest bulb in the package so whilst he may have known kay would be in danger like you say, i doubt hed comprehend it right away

Spying on someone is not 'a hit'.

Interesting theory though, much more believable that Fredo thought Mike was going to be 'spied on'...and one which obliterates your earlier claim that you're 'sure' Fredo knew it was going to be 'a hit'.


I think he would. Right away. IF he opened the drapes knowing there would be gunshots fired into her bedroom.

But again, I don't think he either opened the drapes OR knew it was going to be a hit.

Apple

I agree, Turnbull.

The idea is to not let your enemies know what you are thinking....

In this, Fredo seems innocent to make it appear that he is. Remember in the novel, after Santino is killed, and Tom calls Carlos....he reassures him that noone thinks that he killed his brother in law. Most importantly, Carlos admits that his beating of his pregnant wife was not an effort to draw out Sonny. He wanted it to appear of his terrible relations with his wife to make the hit successful.

I am saying all this to say, that Fredo is not innocent in all of this. Maybe he did not think it was going to be a hit, but certainly, he was one of the plotters.

As far as who killed the hitmen, is a matter of much speculation that can never truly be answered. (MP should have developed this line of action in the screenplay!)

Regarding Fredo and the drapes.....

I think we have to give more weight to the evidence of what we are actually shown in the film, rather than what we can speculate about.

We know Fredo was involved in the plot

We know someone opened the drapes.

Someone = Fredo

Fredo is the only plotter identified, and the only action he can be identified with is the drapes-opening. I think we can all agree that you can't identify Fredo with the murder of the hitmen.

Any other elements in the assassination plot (how the hitmen got on the grounds, who killed them, how the killer got away) are pure speculation, and to associate Fredo with any of them is equally speculative.

Doesn't necessarily work. Yes, we know Fredo was involved and we know someone opened the drapes. However it is obvious that several people other than Fredo had to have been involved even though we do not see them. So while it can be *speculated* that because we're sure of his involvement Fredo MAY have opened the drapes, there's no absolute evidence provided by the film that he was.

No, he isn't. The dead hitmen can be identified as 'plotters' (or at least involved in the 'plot'), since they obviously did not belong on the grounds and were there to carry out the murder of Don Corleone. That is why Michael would've preferred them to be captured alive...they could've provided information.

If 2 armed men were somehow able to infiltrate the Tahoe compound undetected until after the hit attempt, then it can be assumed that others would've been able to do the same...and possibly open the bedroom drapes.

Except for the facts that Fredo was involved, the drapes were opened, shots were fired into Michael & Kay's bedroom, and 2 unidentified hitmen were found with their throats cut...ALL other elements are open to speculation.

Apple

Frankly, the idea of Johnny Ola sneaking into Michael and Kay's room is preposterous. "This is your room? How crazy is that?! I was looking for the toilet."

What about the possibility that little Anthony, whilst delivering the drawing, opened the drapes in order to better take in the delightful scene of a delightful day?

There's a big presumption that Cosa Nostra hitmen need the drapes open to whack a guy. Snipers need open drapes. Thugs spraying a room with machine guns can get by on a silhouette.

How the drapes got opened hardly matters, IMO.

Most sensible statement made in this thread yet !!!

Apple