???

DeSimone was killed by The Gambinos because he killed Billy Batts, who was a made man. While it was never said who actually killed DeSomone, rumor has it that it was John Gotti who was behind the murder of DeSimone. Supposedly Batts was a friend of John Gotti.

Haven't you ever watched Goodfellas?

Don Cardi

He was also killed for other reasons though, one being he was also sleeping with the wife of a Gambino member. There's more I'm sure but that's one I know of.

i sure as hell didn't kill him. lol...
but i didn't know he was sleeping with a member of the gambino's wife. i'm pretty sure that him doing this is definatly a punishable offence.

He had also made similar transgressions against the Gambino's with one of their associates, nicknamed Foxy I believe. Something had happened where he was stealing from or had offended Foxy, and Gotti also used this, along with the Batts situation, the get permission to take DeSimone out.

I read the book for Goodfellas, Wiseguy, about a year ago, and this is all in there, so some of the details are hazy.

According to the book by Joe "Dogs" Ianuzzi ("Joe Dogs: The Life and Crimes of a Mobster") the hit on DeSimone was done by Gambino soldier Tommy Agro.

Does the Joe Dogs story also include a recipe for pasta with a tomoato marinera?

tony b.

Wait...In which family was Paul Vario, so what family DeSimone/Hill associated with? The Lucchese right?

And when Tommy de Vito was about to be made (in the Lucchese family), to which family belonged the guys that shot him? (I'm talking Goodfellas now)

Tommy DeSimone was a member of the Lucchese Family, but after he murdered a member of John Gotti's Regime (Billy Bats), the Gambino Family got permission from the Lucchese Family (probably Vittorio Amuso or Paul Vario) to murder Tommy DeSimone before he was "made."

That actually is an interesting question. If Tommy was being killed by Gambino men, it wouldnt make sense for the guys taking him to his making ceremony to be members of the Gambinos, theyd have to by Lucchese's.

Never thought about that. Might just be a bit of directorial initiative on Scorsese's part, seeing as he deleted the whole John Gotti part of the story. In the movie its phrased as if Lucchese guys are killing Tommy, but for whacking a Gambino man. Doesnt make sense.

Also, does anyone know if the real Tommy was killed like in the movie, thinking he was about to be made?

http://www.answers.com/topic/thomas-desimone


It was not until Henry Hill became an FBI informant in 1980 that the authorities found out what had happened to DeSimone. It was related to the murder of Billy Batts back in 1970 (Billy Batts is only an alias used for the sake of the book and movie, the basis for that character was Ronald Jerrothe). "Batts" had been an associate of John Gotti, and by the end of 1978 Gotti and his crew had somehow found out that Batts had been killed and more importantly that DeSimone was responsible; the reason was supposed to have been over a woman. The Gotti Crew had lured DeSimone to a meeting with promises of 'making' him into a fully fledged member of the Mafia, but instead had executed and buried him. DeSimone was aged twenty-eight when he was killed, and - like Batts - his body has yet to be found by authorities. After Tommy was killed, Gotti went after his cousin, who had known too much about the Batts murder to stay alive.

Also find another theory on it

http://goodfellas.martin-scorsese.net/information/real_story_tommydesimone.html

Tommy's real name was Tommy DeSimone, and was played by Joe Pesci in the film. The real life Tommy was much taller, although his menace was much the same.

Tommy was suspected of being on the Lufthansa job because an employee noticed one of the robbers had very shiny shoes (Tommy was well known for his dapper dressing and immaculate shoes).

He was murdered for a couple of reasons. First, he killed Batts, a made man of the Gambino crew. Second, he fooled around with another Gambino's wife. A made man as well, Foxy was in prison during this time, however, his capo did not want to exact revenge at that time. According to Joseph "Joe Dogs" Iannuzzi, Tommy Agro did the hit on DeSimone. Another possibility, although less supported, is that Paolo LiCastri was the hit man. In any case, a sit-down was conducted between Paul Vario and the Luccheses, and the Gambinos to order the hit.

Thanks for posting this and the link, scarface.
I read Henry Hill's full account of the Tommy DiSimone story in his book, "Gangsters and Goodfellas." It confuses, rather than clarifies, the story. Please bear with me--it's complicated:
Hill describes Batts and his murder exactly as portrayed in "Goodfellas." He says Tommy, although an unmade associate of the Lucchese family under Paul Vario, also hung with a Gambino crew that included John Gotti. He did jobs with Foxy, an unmade, non-Italian associate who Hill describes as Gotti's "protege." Foxy became enraged when Tommy bedded Foxy's sister. He banged on Tommy's door and when he opened it, decked Tommy. Tommy drew a hidden gun, killed Foxy, "got up and walked out, just like that," apparently making no attempt to hide Foxy's body.
Tommy was out on $100k bail on a hijacking charge at the time. Paulie, Henry and Johnny Dio were in the Federal pen in Lewisberg, PA. Hill writes that Tommy became paranoid that the Gambinos would whack him in the street because his protector, Vario, was in the can. So he asked his bail bondsman to revoke his bail and was sent to Lewisberg, where he surfaced on Mob Row. According to Hill, Mob Row had dorms (like the one shown in "Goodfellas") for each of the Five Families. There, Tommy hung out with Angelo Ruggiero, Gotti's right-hand man, who was in the "Gambino Dorm." All of this happened in '74.
Tommy next appears in Hill's story in 1979, after the Lufthansa job was pulled. He writes that Jimmy Burke "had the entire Lufthansa heist crew whacked out of desperation. He knew it was only a matter of time before the Feds flipped one of them. The first two to go were Stacks Edwards and Marty Krugman. Tommy DiSimone was the third to get whacked..."
Now, you'd get the impression that Jimmy whacked Tommy. But no! Hill next says that Paulie ordered it: Paulie "despised" Tommy "but put up with him because Jimmy loved him and he was such a good earner and whacker...They probably had a big meeting with Paul Castellano...The crews got together on this hit because Tommy was Burke's gut, and Burke was so powerful that he could've been the capo if he was Italian. So Paulie needed an alliance to take out Jimmy's guy." Hill then recounts the story of the phony ceremony to "make" Tommy, and says that Gotti was the triggerman

Right away, you can see that this story is absurd. First, if Tommy was out on bail in a hijacking case, it'd mean that he hadn't been convicted or lost an appeal yet. If his bail were revoked, he'd be sent to the Rikers Island lockup (if it were a state charge), or the Manhattan House of Detention (if it was a Federal rap)-- not Lewisberg, which is a prison for those convicted of Federal crimes. Second, if he was afraid that Gotti's crew would whack him in revenge for Foxy (and presumably Batts), why on earth would he maneuver to get to Lewisberg's Mafia Row and hang out with Angelo Ruggiero--Gotti's best friend? Third, why would it take five years after he killed Batts and Foxy for Tommy to be whacked? And fourth, why would Paul Vario (who Don Cardi described, in an excellent bio here, as the most powerful capo in the Lucchese Family) need permission from Castellano to whack a guy in his outfit who wasn't made? And when did Jimmy Burke, another unmade guy in Vario's crew who wasn't even Italian, get so powerful that the mighty Vario dared not move against his pal Tommy without permission from Castellano?

This thread points up the difficulty of doing serious research on Mob stuff. I like a good story, and it doesn't necessarily have to be true for me to like it. And Henry Hill is a great storyteller. But I take everything he says with a ton of salt. To give another example: Hill says he met and became pals with Joe Namath, the Jets' famous playboy quarterback. Namath told him to "bet the ranch" on the Jets in the '69 Superbowl, when the Jets were big underdogs. Hill brags that he made $100k--and not only didn't tell Vario, but made the money from Vario's bookies. He constantly brags about how he lied to and cheated Vario. Do you think that Vario, one of the most powerful Mob guys in New York, got that way by being hoodwinked and ripped off by an unmade pissant like Hill?

I heard a story dunno if its true or not but here goes While Henry was in jail after Paul got out Paul and Henry's wife had an affair then Tommy tried to rape her and Paul went and told the Gambino family about Bats and Gotti was the trigger man at the ceremony thats what I heard I dunno if its true or not

That story is in Hill's book, "Gangsters and Goodfellas." Is it true? Could be, but you must also ask (anyway, I ask) :rolleyes: :
--Since Henry and Karen are divorced, did he make up that story to make her look bad?
--Why would Vario, a most powerful capo, need to go to the Gambinos for permission to whack Tommy, who was an unmade associate in his crew?

I thought he went to them so they would kill Tommy to avoid Jimmy is my only guess

Yes Turnbull, Henry Hill is a very good storyteller. Just in what you quoted and I re-quoted alone shows what a storyteller he really is. The point that you make about Tommy asking that his bail be revoked, being a probable lie on Hill's part, for the reasons that you posted, is a very good point. And to add to what you said and coroborate your statement about Tommy going back to prison being a probable lie, Hill claims that Tommy was hanging out with Angelo Ruggerio while in prison, and that it all took place in 1974.

Well if that was really the case then DeSimone would have also been hanging out with Gotti while in prison. Because in 1973 John Gotti participated in the killing of James McBratney, and wound up doing two years in prison for it. And that would put the time somewhere between 1973 and 1975. I also believe tht Gotti and Ruggerio served thier prison terms together.

So if what Henry Hill claimed about Tommy DeSimone hanging out with Ruggerio in prison was true, then why in the world wouldn't he have said that DeSimone was hanging out with Gotti instead of just saying Ruggerio?

Because as you correctly point out, Henry Hill is a very good storyteller.

Oh, and thank you for the fine compliment that you gave me about the Paul Vario Biography that I posted.


Don Cardi

The compliment was well deserved, DC. As I said in your thread at that time, I never knew Vario was such a bigshot until you informed me.

Turnbull, do you agree with my point in regards to the time frame and what Henry Hill claims about Tommy and Angelo hanging out together in prison?


For any of the new members who may be interested in reading the Paulie Vario biography that Turnbull is talking about, here's the link : http://www.gangsterbb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000910


Don Cardi

With all due respect, and out of pure curiosity, where did you read or learn that Billy Batts' real name was Ronald Jerrothe? I am sincerely curious to know.

According to several books that I have read and from some research that I've done, Billy Batts' real name was William Devino.


Don Cardi

Gotti was arrested for the McBratney murder on June 3, 1974. He pleaded guilty to a reduced charge, and several months must have passed between his arrest and the start of his prison term. I believe he served two years on that rap, and Angelo Ruggiero was imprisoned with him. Gotti was still in prison when Carlo Gambino died in October, 1976, so it's possible that Tommy DiSimone was in Lewisberg with Gotti--depending on how long Tommy was in Lewisberg.
But, was Tommy really in Lewisberg at all? We have only Henry Hill's account. As I said in an earlier post, Henry Hill said Tommy asked for his bail to be revoked, but that didn't necessarily mean he'd be incarcerated in Lewisberg. And if he did go to Lewisberg, why would he hang out with Ruggiero, Gotti's best pal--and, as you noted, possibly Gotti's cellmate?

With all due respect, and out of pure curiosity, where did you read or learn that Billy Batts' real name was Ronald Jerrothe? I am sincerely curious to know.

According to several books that I have read and from some research that I've done, Billy Batts' real name was William Devino.


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]I'd also be interested to know. In "Mob Star," Capeci's excellent book on Gotti, he never mentions or identifies identifies Billy Batts (though he refers to Foxy), but does cover a William Battista, a bookie who disappeared, as Billy Batts was supposed to. But Capeci thinks Battista might have been an informant.

Gangster and Goodfellas is a great read. Reads almost as well as Wiseguy. Turnbulls right, Hill's a good story teller.

If I remember correctly though, Hill does admit that his evidence on Tommy's hit by Gotti came from another informer, Sal Polici, a Gambino guy after Goodfellas was filmed. So yes definately take the story, like Turnbull says, with a ton of salt.

His other revelations are just as good though claiming Michele Sindona, God's banker, wasn't just taking money from the pizza connection but was actually involved in the smuggling of drugs to the USA with his diplomatic immunity. True or not I don't know but the theory is interesting.

The feeling I've got from reading the book is he's just name dropping for sales and interest - Nameth, Gotti, Sindona etc.

DeSimone's fifth murder was of John Gotti's protege, a young gangster named Fredrick "Foxy" Civano. DeSimone had dated Foxy's sister and then beaten her up when he dumped her, prompting Foxy to threaten to kill DeSimone. When DeSimone heard about the threat, he went to Foxy's apartment and knocked on the door; Foxy opened the door, punched DeSimone in the face, and then DeSimone shot Foxy between the eyes, killing him.

Since I am still new at learing about the mafia way of life, since Tommy DeSimone whacked Billy Batts doesn't that make him a made man? Or do you have to whack more than 1 person? Sorry if that was a stupid question

Actually, since Tommy whacked a made man, it made Tommy a dead man.
I think you're mixing this up with the Mafia lore that an "associate" has to kill someone for the Mob in order to be "made." But, according to Mob lore, no one can mess with a made man unless there's a sitdown.

Besides having 100 posts to be MADE, what do you have to do to get made then

Supposedly, in Mob "lore," you have to serve a long apprenticeship (as Christopher did in "Sopranos") and then, if you're lucky, they tap you on the shoulder and tell you to kill someone for them. Then you get "made" in the ceremony with the burning saint's card, finger-pricking, etc.
As a practical matter, there's no such rule because a Don can make whomever he wants, for whatever reasons. Some follow that kind of ceremony, others don't. Fat Vinny Teresa, in his book, "My Life in the Mob," said that the Boston outfit under Raymond Patriarca never had a formal ceremony: "They just called you to the office one day and told you that you were in." Salvatore (Bill) Bonanno was being groomed by his father as the next Don, and he never mentioned being formally made. John Gotti served as a crew chief in the Gambinos long before he was formally made. Jimmy Burke functioned as a crew chief in the Luccheses and he didn't even have a drop of Italian blood.

And it still begs the question of what really happened to Tommy DiSimone.
I'm thinking that if the Tommy/Batts thing really happened the way it was portrayed in "Goodfellas," it showed that Paulie had a pretty good head on his shoulders:

Tommy and Batts had their shouting match in front of witnesses. As Henry said, "His [Batts's] crew's gonna be looking for him." Probably some of his crew were among the witnesses, but even if they weren't, they'd have heard about it soon enough. And they'd know that Tommy was responsible for Batts's disappearance. In the Mob, suspicion is as good as conviction--they ain't never heard of no due process or rules of evidence.
Since Tommy wasn't a made man, they could have whacked him without further ado. But since Tommy was with Paulie, they probably made their beef to him--they didn't ask him what happened to Batts, they told him, and no doubt demanded that Paulie take care of it (and absorb the risks and expenses, too). So, I'm guessing, when Paulie had his tet-a-tet with Henry, he already knew Batts was dead and Tommy had killed him. He was simply feeling out Henry to see if he had any additional info that might be useful before he acted.
Paulie could have told the Gambinos to go fly a kite: "Hey, Tommy ain't one o'my made guys, an' he hangs out with youse guys too--you whack him." But Paulie, clever fellow, would have found it prudent to take care of Tommy. By "doing the right thing," he could pose as "a man of honor, honoring Mafia tradition." The Gambinos might owe him a favor in the future. And he was good and ready to get rid of Tommy: as he told Henry, "Tommy's a cowboy...he's got too much to prove." By getting into a public shouting match with a made guy, and later whacking him, Tommy proved himself a serious liability to Paulie. Finally, if Paulie had let the Gambinos take care of it, they might have whacked Henry and Jimmy, too--and they were good earners whom Paulie wanted to retain. So, by whacking Tommy, Paulie killed several birds with one stone. Smart guy.

i know a guy who grew up around and knew jimmys son and stuff yes james burke was that powerful paulie would not want mess with jimmy but jimmy also had respect for paulie and tommy did hang with the gotti crew also all the families knew that paulies boys were crazy and had tons of respect tommy got clipped for alot of stuff he was crazy and paulie got sick of tommy, plus other families were starting to talk to paulie about tommy and with tommy trying to rape hills ex,that made paulie pissed because he had a big thing with hills wife and with the other families backing paulie jimmy would not get involved