Contradiction much?

That's right. I remember when NY won the Series in '96, many commented that Torre (a career National Leaguer) brought NL baseball to the Yankees. Stolen bases, hit and runs, bunts, sacrifices, etc. It was also widely said that that team was ateam without superstars.

Once they filled the lineup with big superstar names, they lost that element. Giambi won't bunt; Rodriguez won't go to right to advance a runner; and Sheffield swings for the fences thinking if he doesn't connect, someone else will get the runs in. I have little doubt that the '96 team would likely sweep the '06 collection of stars.

With respect to Jeter and A-Rod, it is obvious that there is discord, probably stemming, in part, from A-Rod's dissing of Jeter in the Esquirearticle 6 or 7 years ago. If A-Rod needs more support than the $25 million he's getting, he should be shown the door.

I agree about the smallball comments, which I pointed out in a previous post regarding how the Yankees had no strategy at the plate.

And I also saw the ESPN article that said to trade Jeter and keep A-Rod, which made about as much sense as a one-legged man entering an ass-kicking contest. There is definite animosity between A-Rod and Jeter, and I'd rather see A-Rod gone than Jeter any day. Give me 4 Jeters and 4 Bernie Williams and I'll show you how to play baseball. These are the kinds of guys we need...we need to get rid of the A-Rods, the Sheffields, the Giambi prima donnas.

Contradiction much? [/b][/quote]Not at all. I blame the players, the veteran players for not showing any life on the bench. When an experienced manager has a good anount of experienced players on his team and in his dugout, the manager should not have to be the one to constantly pump the younger players up or for that matter pump the veterans up. He usually knows that his veteran players will take care of those things. That his veteran players will walk up and down the bench and try to pump up the other players.

No JJ, not a contradiction at all.

Don't blame Torre because his Veteran Line-up could not excite themselves, or the younger players for that matter.

Al I blame him for was his refusal to manage by trying to manufacture runs and not rely on the long ball as much as he did. But he definitely does not deserve to be fired.

Don Cardi

If the responsibility to motivate and manage a team is supposed to come from the veteran players, why bother having a manager at all? The way you've described the situation, there is no need for coaching, it should be the guys picking themselves up from the bootstraps. While I think that is necessary, it is the managers responsibility to prepare these guys, just like a general must have his troops ready to take the field.

Sorry, I don't buy the fact that the manager is totally absolved from his team coming it to the playoffs DOA. Torre was a great manager, one of the greatest, but it is about that time that someone more active and less passive steps into the job.

Glad to hear that Joe Torre will be the Yankees skipper for at least one more year. I think this is the last year of his contract so enjoy it Yankee fans, as this will be his last year ever (they won't resign him, nor do I think Joe will resign).

I couldn't agree more with you here klydon1. A lot of people want Piniella to be the Yankees coach and I don't think he's a good fit. I'd rather see Lee M. or Joe Giradi

I couldn't agree more with you here klydon1. A lot of people want Piniella to be the Yankees coach and I don't think he's a good fit. I'd rather see Lee M. or Joe Giradi [/b][/quote]As someone, who is not a Yankee fan, I can't say that I'm thrilled, but bringing Torre back is the right move. I think George realizes that sometimes anything can happen in a short series. Get rid of Sheffield and fine tune the machine.

Between Mazilli and Girardi, I think Mazilli would be a better fit with the present Yankees. Girardi is not that far removed from his playing days and may not command the same level of respect from a team of stars. Plus, I think Girardi is a really good fit with the Cubs.

I also think George is well aware of the backlash he would receive from firing Torre (especially if he only had one year left on his contract). Again, I think King George will just swallow his pride for another year, give the team to Torre for one last hooray and then quietly say goodbye after the 2007 season.

I'm glad everyone seems to have picked up on my Mazzilli thoughts...I think he will be the best option to replace Torre after the 2007 season.

And don't worry, I12...I'm sure I'll enjoy it. Hopefully we'll get past the first round this time, and our players will want to win.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy are they bringing Joe back???????????

I've been hearing a TON of rumors about this upcoming offseason. I'm hearing Sheffield won't be resigned, Wright and Unit might get their contracts bought out, they might be trying to shop Giambi and A-Rod, and they might not resign Moose

My description in no way even implies that there is no need for coaching. So please don't put words in my mouth, you're not debating politics with some lib over in GENERAL :p

Yes a manager needs to get his team ready. And a manager needs to be a motivator at times. But I look at that Yankee bench and see a bunch of guys just sitting there watching a ballgame. Where were the Bernies and the Jeters talking to the other players trying to motivate them? You loo at the Mets dugout and all you see are the Julio Francos and the Carlos Delgados talking and motivating the other players. That's what I was talking about JJ.

One thing that Torre maybe should have done was to go out in that 3rd or 4th game and argue with an ump and make a scene and get booted which mayh have incited the rest of the team to step up a bit and get excited.

There was absolutely no excitment whatsoever on that Yankee bench.

Perhaps Torre was not as animated as he should have been. Perhaps he should have been a little more aggresive in his managing style as far as manufacturing runs and trying to make things happen on the bases. But there is no way that you can convince me that he was to blame and that he should be fired. No way.

Spolied, spoiled, spoiled. That's what you are! :p


Don Cardi

Torre not animated?? There's a big stretch. Joe Torre is NEVER animated. He is poker-faced in any and every game. That's his style. Having grown up in an abusive household, he remains calm and placid, no matter what (you know, DC, kind of like you and me ). It's just not his nature.

I12, Some of those rumored changes are ok by me. However, I hope that they don't follow their usual path and trade hot, young talent (read Melky Cabrera) for some aging prima donna with a ridiculous contract.

I agree DC. I believe I saw during Game 4 in the middle or late innings, Jeter on the bench smiling while talking to one of the players. I'm thinking to myself, "WTF are you smiling for? You're about to be eliminated by the Detroit Tigers!"

FWIW - I don't know how true it is, but, Ron & Fez said that Mike (and the Mad Dog) reported that Torre is STAYING!

...and it's apparently true !

I've been hearing a TON of rumors about this upcoming offseason. I'm hearing Sheffield won't be resigned, Wright and Unit might get their contracts bought out, they might be trying to shop Giambi and A-Rod, and they might not resign Moose [/b][/quote]I'd be in support of every single one of those moves.

With Wang as the ace, Hughes coming up and hopefully Matsuzaka acquired from Seibu, that gives the Yankees three solid starters. Re-sign Mussina as the #4 pitcher (15-7 for your fourth starter would be pretty damn good). If they could get Dontrelle Willis (surely a stretch, just like the Pujols rumors), it would be an insane rotation.

The blame does fall on the manager because it isn't the players responsibility to get other players ready to go. That is the managers job - even without the fire, it looked like half of the team had been out partying late the night before and hadn't practiced. That's not Jeter's or Bernie's problem, because we know their respective work ethics. But the manager has to a.) sit-on the prima donnas like Sheffield and Giambi, slap the shit out of them if necessary, and light them up and b.) get the team organized, use a variety of strategies, and not just sit there and watch the team go 1-2-3 up and down for 9 innings.

That is absolutely Torre's fault, and I can't see how that this isn't bigger issue to some people here. Again, in the past I've expressed my fondness for Torre and my belief that he is one of the greatest managers of all time, but the Yankees came in naked. Now, granted, his pitching rotation, with the exception of Wang, was suspect. But with that batting lineup, there should have been some more runs on the board than the pathetic, paltry outings in games 3 and 4.

Furthermore, at the press conference yesterday, what did Torre say the Yankees needed to improve on next year?

Starting pitching?

Better defense?

No. The bullpen.

Sorry Joe, but I cannot fathom how you can blame the bullpen for the Yankees problems. If anything, Proctor, Villone Inc. were solid this season, Bruney came in as a breath of fresh air, Myers was the best lefty specialist in baseball, and Farnsworth was decent. And Rivera is Rivera. Don't tell me that the bullpen is the problem - by the time they came into the game, it was mop-up duty.

Maybe with some on-field personnel changes for 2007, Joe Torre can coach the Yankees to another World Series. Maybe if they get a new third-baseman who can play decent defense, and who can bat deep into the lineup. Maybe if they get a defensive first baseman. Maybe if they don't have so many injuries. Maybe if they have starting pitching.

Maybe, most of all, if the manager can get the team to want the World Series more than anybody else.

Apparently, Derek Jeter was one of the major Yankee organization people that called Papa George and told him that Torre needs to stay. I've criticized Jeter in the past, even if he's got an arguable AL MVP year, but at least he's using his muscle to keep Papa George in check(though Brian Cashman being another major voice does help).

What's with this "motivation" shit? These guys are PAID to play. They're PAID to win. They're PAID to be "motivated".

Besides, did Torre mishandle a ball like A-Rod did? Did Torre leap and barely missed a ground ball like Jeter did? Did Torre blew a game like the Unit did? Better yet, did Torre blow that umpire call on A-Rod/Pudge at 3rd?

I thought it was hilarious during Torre's press conference that while the Yanks haven't won a title since 2000, Torre made a point that before he came in, the Yanks hadn't won a title since the 1970s.

But yeah, next season will be his last, which then Papa George could then hire Pinella or whatever manager(maybe Mattingly or Leo Maz) that fits his fancy. However, the next manager of the Yankees in the 2008 season must use Torre's one great attribute in relations to Papa George: Tolerance. Really, I don't think I could take George's shit for 11 years.

Managers, even with Joe's success, are always in the "what have you done for me lately," saga with owners, especially in New York. It's been 60 Steinbrenner years since the Yankees have won a World Series.

And sure the players are paid to play, I'm not disputing that. They should all be like Derek Jeter, and run out every ground ball to first base, and never quit on defense. But in reality, there are quite a few prima donna Manny Ramirez's around the league. In the 2006 playoffs, they all seemed to congregate in the Yankee locker room.

Now again, I think the blame falls upon Joe mainly for an absence strategy and lack of fire in the team, but as you've said, A-Rod and crew helped by doing absolutely zero for the team this postseason.

Interesting point in light of remarks Joe Morgan made on ESPN Radio yesterday. When asked to compare the Big Red Machine with the present Yankees, he noted that the Yankees in their series were quiet and keeping to themselves in the dugout.

He went on that the Reds would constantly discuss pitchers' patterns, batters' tendencies, alternate approaches, especially when challenged. He noted that Kenny Rogers had subtle, predictable tendencies in his approach to lefties and righties, but the players sat away from one another and didn't discuss it. He said especially in play-offs, he, Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Griffey, etc. would discuss these things constantly between innings. Once behind, he felt the Yankees lost focus and desire when they needed it most.

Everyone needs/wants a scapegoat.

I think you hit upon one of his top assets. While I'm far from a Yankee fan, I firmly believe that Torre's demeanor has given the Yankees a stability they've never seen under the chaos of Steinbrenner. Prior to his arrival in the '96 season, they bounced among managers. Billy Martin several times, Lou Piniella, Showalter.

While I admit that Torre had more talent than his predecessors, he was the perfect manager to allow the team to grow and flourish. Get rid of him? Be careful what you wish for.

klydon, you are right. His calm demeanor was exactly what the Yankees needed, given the volatile nature of the previous managers, no to mention the owner!! I am very happy to hear that he'll be with the team for another year. I think that he's being blamed for this loss, but not credited for what he achieved in the past two years. Given the injuries this year, given the lack of pitching, given the fact that they had the most overused bullpen in baseball, the fact that he's managed to guide them to the division championship again and again is just outstanding. I'd like to see any other manager in baseball do it.

When the Red Sox lost Manny, Big Papi, Varitek and Shilling to the DL, everybody cried and said, Well how can you expect them not to crash and burn? However, when the Yankees lost Sheffield, Matsui, Cano, and, albeit briefly, Mussina to the DL, everyone said, Tough, find a way to win anyway. And Joe Torre did.

Yes, but does any other team have a bench as deep or as good as the Yankees do this year. If they didn't have someone to put in a spot, which they had many, then they went out and bought who they needed.

I'm not meaning this in a bad way. Just pointing out that Joe had the best hand money could buy. Some fans see that and need a scapegoat and Joe is it to them!

I hear people say that you can have the best superstar in the world, but if the manager or coach can't get it out of that superstar then it is his fault. Think about it...

Joe had so many superstars that he had a problem not playing them when they were stinking up the place. How can you bench a 25 million dollar superstar that is stinking up the place. Instead move him to the rear of the order?

But none of those injuries or shortcomings of the Yankees were expected to be problems. This team steamrolled into the playoffs with the best record in the league, and looked like the Kansas City Royals. It doesn't matter whether Joe Torre has guided them to the Divisional Series every year for the past how long...when's the last time they've gotten to the World Series?

Torre had a glut of talent to work with, and both he and his team couldn't get the job done. I've outlined what I think went wrong with this team, and while I don't think it's entirely Torre's fault, he should certainly share his brunt of the blame.

I've been hearing a TON of rumors about this upcoming offseason. I'm hearing Sheffield won't be resigned, Wright and Unit might get their contracts bought out, they might be trying to shop Giambi and A-Rod, and they might not resign Moose [/b][/quote]I'd be in support of every single one of those moves.

With Wang as the ace, Hughes coming up and hopefully Matsuzaka acquired from Seibu, that gives the Yankees three solid starters. Re-sign Mussina as the #4 pitcher (15-7 for your fourth starter would be pretty damn good). If they could get Dontrelle Willis (surely a stretch, just like the Pujols rumors), it would be an insane rotation. [/b][/quote]I think they should resign Moose and make them the 4th starter. Having Wang be the ace, bring Hughes up and see how he does (it's still not a guarantee yet) and also that Japanese pitcher (Matsuzaka), try to sign him but he's even more suspect than Hughes because pitching in America is different than pitching in Japan. I'd like to see him pitch against the Angels, Mets or Red Sox. But if they could make all of these moves happen, I'd resign Moose and stick him in there as well (that'd be a pretty sweet rotation)

There comes a point where pitching is pitching. Matsuzaka can pitch. Anywhere. And his gyroball will frustrate the hell out of any American batter, period.

I hope you're right and I hope the Yankees get him. How old is he? Also, I thought I heard he still has 1 year remaining on his contract with his Japanese team?

Hughes and Matsuzaka are far from being called solid major league pitchers. hideki Irabu was a sure thing too.

True, but all indications are that both should be excellent. Hughes was, by all accounts, the best pitcher in Yankees spring training 2006...that isn't the best rookie, it was the best pitcher, period.

And watch some Matsuzaka film. Even if he has a bit of trouble adjusting, he'll be decent.

I'd rather have Hughes and Matsuzaka than Randy Johnson and Jaret Wright...it can't be any worse. :p

Maybe. But I think they'll need solid veteran arms to get to the Series. Neither has pitched a full season by major league standards, nor have they faced a major league lineup.

Right now just about every team has a promising pitcher being touted as a future #1 ace in a staff.