I do not know whether this has been explored in the past, and if it has. perhaps you old timers can tell me where. In looking at the relationships among the Corelone Brothers (and I include Tom Hagen in this), I note the are undercurrents of tension that are truly the stuff of sibling rivalry.

It is interesting that the most Michael and Sonny can ever say to Tom to hurt him is to remind him he is not a Sicilian and to imply that he is too conciliatory, something both of them do early and often.

A closer look at these relationships provides some insights into what may be motivating all this. First of all, it seems it was pre-ordained that Santino would be the Don's successor. He is the first born, and in one of the last scenes of GF the Don tells Michael that he knew Santino would "have to go through all this." That said, I also think the Don was always suspect of Santino's ability to run the family. It was Santino who "found" Tom Hagen "on the street" and in an uncharacteristic act of kindness, invited him home after which the Don raised him. By the time Santino introduced Connie to Carlo, it was already clear that the Don and Tom were very close. In that scene Tom tells Mike that he and his father had spoken often about Mike's future, something Mike clearly resents by making a very jealous sounding outburst. By the time COnnie is married, it seems Tom is closer to the Don than Sonny. It is Tom who sits with the Don and counsels him on her wedding day while Sonny is off fooling around with Lucy. The Don sends Tom to get Sonny and then makes the comment about Tom not being a "real man." Again when Sonny makes the faux pas at the Sollozzo meeting he insults Sonny in front of Sollozzo AND later lays into him in front of Tom. I think this resentment spills over in the "Pop had Genco and look what I got scene." The hostility between the two is a foreshadowing of the "Thats the way pop wanted it"/"its not the way I wanted it" scene between Fredo and Mike.

We also see that Tom has a sense of superiotiry over both Tom and Michael in GFI. He is furious at Sonny for the way he is conducting himself, and when Michael first suggests that he kill Sollozo and McCluskey, everyone laughs, but Tom shakes his head in disgust as if to say "What a bunch of morons these guys are." Of course as soon as he sees the brilliance in Mikes plan,he goes along.

Later, when Mike takes over, the first thing he does is move Tom out, and for the remainder of their relationship things are on again and then off again between those two. Mike seems to include Tom only when he needs him, and spends the rest of his time insulting him about not giving him straight answers, having a mistress, not being a wartime consigliere, etc.

I think there is a Freudian aspect to all this in that all of them, even Fredo in his pathetic way, are always competing with each other for the Don's affection. I dont know if this undercurrent was intentional or not, but it is definitely there.

Sure, there were plenty of sibling rivalries--there always are in families. The rivalries are one of the factors that make the Trilogy such a richly satisfying family saga. But what really complicated matters in the Trilogy is the fact that Tom is also, in effect, an employee of the family as well as a brother. IMO, the most revealing example is in the flashback scene at the end of GFII, when Michael announces that he's joined the Marines. Sonny reacts with violent anger, much in character for him. Tom also reacts in character--as the Don's consigliere-in-training. "Michael, your father and I have discussed your future many times..." Michael gives him that patented Michael Corleone cold stare: "You...discussed my future...with my father..." Of course he did--that was part of Tom's role as consigliere-in-training. But it made for supreme awkwardness because Tom was also technically Michael's brother.

I think the sibling rivalry is not connected to Don in most cases.

1)Michael - Sonny
No rivalry, they were the closest among brothers.

2)Michael - Tom
This rivalry was on the matter of how much aggressive should one be. Tom meant business, didn't care much about personal insults and did not feel the need to kill everyone. Michael was quite opposite. So michael felt tom was ineffective and incapable. Tom wanted to gain respect but he could never agree with michael's irrational beliefs.

3)Michael - Fredo
This rivalry was based on Fredo's character. Michael considered Fredo as useless and Fredo didn't like it. Only in his own imagination, he was just as capable as anyone, but a victim of others' conspiracy to keep him away from power.

4)Sonny - Fredo
This aspect is not explored much, but I suspect Fredo liked Sonny over michael.

5)Tom - Sonny
Not much rivalry, Sonny did not hate Tom as such and his insults on Tom were not on the same scale as those of michael to tom. Sonny hurt Tom impulsively, in a moment of desaparation - his father was shot, and he was out of his control.

6)Tom - Fredo
This is one place where Don's proximity with Hagen might come into picture. Tom thought Fredo was useless and Fredo didn't care much about Tom's personal opinion but his influence over Don must have bothered Fredo. I am speculating here, we don't get to see much of this being explored in the movie atleast.

7)Connie - brothers
Connie was closest to Sonny and Fredo, she disliked michael(OK, one long post on this is due from me). Fredo and Connie probably were mutually sympathetic because they both did not like michael's attitude. Sonny purely had a protective attitude towards connie (and she didn't really feel bad about it).

Dontomasso - While I think you have picked an interesting topic, and one that has not been discussed at great length before, I do not agree with some of your points.

I don't think that when Sonny brought Tom home, he created friction within the family. I think that the Corleone's welcomed Tom. Also, although the book discusses this at greater length, it was not uncharacteristic of Sonny to be kind, despite his bad temper.

Also, Michael's repsonse to Tom about the discussions Tom has had with Vito about Michael's future is not characterized by jealousy, IMO. I believe he's resentful of the invasion of his privacy, as he is obviously trying to distance himself from the Family.

Also, at Connie's wedding, I believe the "real man" remark was aimed at Sonny, not Tom, as you stated. It was Vito's way of expressing displeasure at Sonny's dalliance with Lucy.

I'm not sure how Sonny's remark to Tom about Genco established hostility between Fredo and Michael. I think that Sonny said it out of bad temper and because he was angry at Tom for missing the signs about Paulie's betrayal.

Also, I don't believe that Tom ever felt superior to his adopted family. I believe the opposite was true. I think he loved them and craved their acceptance, which is why he seems so moved when Michael calls him a brother in GF2.

I think that when Michael announces that he will kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, Tom shakes his head out of sadness, not because he thinks of those in the room as morons. I believe that he is very sad that circumstances have brought Michael to this point. I think he wanted Michael to go "legit", and this was putting an end to all that.

Well said, Sicilian Babe, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
[qb] Dontomasso - While I think you have picked an interesting topic, and one that has not been discussed at great length before, I do not agree with some of your points.

I don't think that when Sonny brought Tom home, he created friction within the family.

Not initially, SB, but over the years I think Tom drew close to the Don as the Don realized that Tom had a good mind, and that Sonny had a bad temper. I think both Sonny and Mike would have sensed this.


I think that the Corleone's welcomed Tom. Also, although the book discusses this at greater length, it was not uncharacteristic of Sonny to be kind, despite his bad temper.


Also, Michael's repsonse to Tom about the discussions Tom has had with Vito about Michael's future is not characterized by jealousy, IMO. I believe he's resentful of the invasion of his privacy, as he is obviously trying to distance himself from the Family.

IMO Mike is looking at Tom who is siding with Sonny over enlisting in the Marines. Tom informs Mike that the Don went to great lengths to get him a deferrment and Mike says "I never asked for it," then Tom says he and the Don had discusssed Mike's future many times to which Mike says YOU talk about MY future with MY FATHER? To me that is resentment.

Also, at Connie's wedding, I believe the "real man" remark was aimed at Sonny, not Tom, as you stated. It was Vito's way of expressing displeasure at Sonny's dalliance with Lucy.

You are correct. I misspoke. I meant to say it is directed at Sonny. The point I was trying to make it that it is Tom who helps the Don with granting all the favors on the wedding day, and he has to get Tom to find Sonny and get him with the program.

I'm not sure how Sonny's remark to Tom about Genco established hostility between Fredo and Michael. I think that Sonny said it out of bad temper and because he was angry at Tom for missing the signs about Paulie's betrayal.

Oh, I did not say it relates to it, but instead it foreshadows it in the sense that maybe Tom felt unprepared to go to war and than maybe he was feeling a little "passed over" same as Fredo would later feel.

Also, I don't believe that Tom ever felt superior to his adopted family. I believe the opposite was true. I think he loved them and craved their acceptance, which is why he seems so moved when Michael calls him a brother in GF2.

Oh definitely, you are absoluitely right that Tom craves acceptance and wants to be treated especially by Mike as a "real brother," and I think Mike cruelly takes advantage of this.

I think that when Michael announces that he will kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, Tom shakes his head out of sadness, not because he thinks of those in the room as morons. I believe that he is very sad that circumstances have brought Michael to this point. I think he wanted Michael to go "legit", and this was putting an end to all that.

Respectfully disagree. Tom had just finished arguing with Sonny and had at least convinced him he might make some kind of deal. It is when Sonny wavers a bit that Mike says there can be no deal and that the "key" for Sollozzo is to "kill pop." Then he says he will kill Sollozo and McCluskey. The reactions of everyone in the room except Tom is they make fun of Mike. Clemenza and Tessio are howling and Sonny gives the famous "brains all over your Ivy league suit speech." It is only after Mike explains that they can use people in the newspapers to put out the story that McCloskey is a crooked cop that anyone really takes him seriously, ao IMO Tom's first reaction is that what Mike says is not funny, but just some half baked idea.


SB for some reason my reply to your points is in this quote. As for the posting immediately after yours, well, I think some people are just trying to get numbers on the board.

We never really see a Tom-Fredo relationship in the movies...

Well, DV in the words of the other Don Vito "Fredo was....well....Fredo....."

DT,
This is a great topic,
I congratulate you.

Many good things are said already, but I cannot agree with some of them.

Bear with me, I'll refer to the novel, as usual. Since the movie is anyway the reduced version of the novel, and sequels are either taking the facts and ideas of the novel and speculating about them, thus developing the novel's characters, or disregard the novel's information and screw the characters with a total flaw as the outcome, I don't see why shouldn't we consider the novel as the most original and impeccable source of everything related to Corleones.
So,
1. Mike-Sonny.
Sonny's succeeding the Don was by no means pre-ordained. Michael was Vito's original choice, he was goomed for the position.
“Though he(Sonny) was a great help in his father’s business, there were many who doubted that he will become the heir to it.”
“Michael had been his favorite before the war and obviously the chosen heir to run the family business when the proper moment came.”
When Clemenza is driving Kay to the Hotel and they chat, “Clemenza assured her…..that the “old man” thought Mike was the best of his sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business.”
So, Mike couldn't have any jealousy of his father's affection, he had no rivals being his favorite.
On the other end, Sonny also had nothing to resent, because Michael refused the position of his father’s successor and left it to Sonny by default. Besides, Mike was much younger, and Sonny obviously had some affection, mixed with irony, for this obstinate little college boy. Remember, when Mike appears after the Don’s shooting, he gets a hug and a kiss on cheek from Sonny, and, exactly as you’d expect such a no-nonsense person, despising sloppy sentimentality, as Mike, to act, he pushed Sonny away and said grinning: “After I get used to you beating me up, I have to put up with this?” to which Sonny answers that he was worried about Mike being in danger.
But the most interesting scene is the conversation that follows after Mike’s proposal of Solozzo hit. It’s very long and informative, I can’t type it all, so take a look at it, but here’s some lines of Sonny’s: “I always said you were the toughest one in the family, tougher than the Don himself. You were the only one who could stand off the old man. I remember you when you were a kid. What a temper you had then. Hell, you even used to fight me, and I was a lot older than you. Freddie had to beat the shit out of you at least once a week.”
And later: “Sonny paused and said softly: “But you’re a Corleone after all, you son of a bitch. And I was the only one who knew it.”
The first of these quotes begins with a significant phrase, in which Sonny, in fact, admits Michael’s superiority, despite all his kidding about him being a smart college boy etc. This makes me believe that if Mike would be chosen by Don as his successor when Sonny was still alive, he’d accept that.
2. Sonny-Tom. The closest of people. They argued, and Sonny insulted him unintentionally out of his temper, but they didn’t resent words. Just read how Tom feels when he’s told that Sonny’s killed.
And the most important characteristic: when Tom is relieved by Solozzo, we read: “ When Hagen had entered the room, Sonny had come rushing to embrace him. Michael realized with a faint twinge of jealousy that in many ways Sonny and Tom Hagen were closer than he himself could ever be to his own brother.”
This is interesting, because it’s the only actual mention of any rivalry and jealousy felt by Mike to any of the family members.

To be continued soon……

The portrayal of Mike’s relationship with Tom is very complex.
There’s no mention of any fights between them in childhood, unlike with Mike’s blood brothers. But we must remember that they were the most educated, intelligent and cool people in the family. They didn’t need to have things out in that way. Tom was the closest person to Vito, admired him and learned a lot from him, we may say that Vito’s influence was a decisive factor for his personality. Mike, in turn, was a “reincarnation of the Don himself”, and as such was groomed by Vito and Tom together. Being his teacher, Tom was very impressed with Mike’s talents in “business”, and there’s no doubt that Mike always had great respect for Tom.
They had a lot in common; in fact, they had more in common than Mike had with his blood brothers. They learned a lot from Vito and admired him. They were very smart and manipulative, penetrative and patient. Mike had more Sicilian cunning, but they both had brains and breeding enough to act in businesslike manner where business was concerned, and not to allow any hostility between them.
In the beginning we read that Tom always liked Mike. But there’s also such a quote: “He (Tom) had never thought of her (Mama) as his mother as he thought of the Don as his father and Sonny as his brother. His affection for her was like his affection for Freddie and Michael and Connie. The affection for someone who has been kind but not loving.”
So we conclude that despite the fact that they were never close as brothers, Mike was always kind to Tom, and they respected each other. Of course Mike would never repeat Sonny’s mistake in underestimating Tom’s opinion. And never could he be so primitive as to insult Tom for no reason – that’s just stupid for Mike, how could FFC screw both great characters in such ungifted way!
And one more thing. When Mike moves Tom out of the action it’s not personal. He has other reasons. All this situation is analyzed in this thread: Why keep Tom out?
At the first opportunity he returns Tom as the consigliere, and Tom is the only person he needs and trusts at the most difficult and dangerous moment in his life. And even though Tom cannot be treated as an equal by Don Michael, when he asks Tom not to give stupid advises, it’s stated that “ for the first time he was cold with Hagen”.
And no one else but Tom is dispatched to bring his wife and kids back. The mission he’s trusted with speaks for Michael’s opinion of him.

Man oh man, this is a good discussion.

However, I must disagree on several key points.

Michael-Sonny Sonny was the oldest, and certainly was favored by the Don. I refer to this from both the movie AND the book. He knew Santino (his proper name) and respect was given to him by others by calling him Sonny. (The son of Vito) Michael loves his brother, but Sonny is hot-headed--he shows this in the dinner scene in Godfather II. His irrationality is disturbing, but it is not uncharacteristic of his kindness. He IS kind! His hatred was for attitudes which conflicted with his more base responses.

Michael-Tom This is explored more in the book, and Tom felt Mike was not loving as Vito or Sonny. However, Tom really looked to him as his brother, and so did Mike. Mike tells Kay that he is his brother, and she mentions why does he have a different name then? (Smile!) Tom tries his best to help the family, but realizes he IS a lawyer. As such, certain actions he found to be harsh, cruel or unnecessary.

Michael-Fredo Fredo is sweet, sentimental, and really unassuming. He naturally loved all of his brothers, but realized he was not cut out for the business. Later, as he got older, he felt if he had more opportunities, this would translate to more respect. He became fixated on his small role, which led him to betrayal and a pawn in the assassination attempt.

Sonny-Fredo Both of these characters are kind, sweet, and good-natured. Sonny impulses drive him, while Fredo is driven more by kindness, and fairness. He makes excuses (I'll get the car, Pop, Paulie is a good kid...) for his friends, (Mike!, you can't talk to a man like Moe Green like that!) because they are NEAR him. This nearness may be illusionary but he feels it. He betrays Mike because Mike does not talk to him. (I wish we talked like this earlier!)

Tom-Sonny This is the most critical link. They were friends who became brothers, and made different choices in their lives. They loved their father immensely, and wanted to help him in his business. They loved their families, and wanted to make sure they were safe and secure. They wanted to help in any way possible. Tom, through legal and counsel advice, and Sonny with the gun and realistic threats. They were closer in age to any of the other brothers, thus making the relationship very special.

Tom Fredo Although not made a strong point in either the film or the movie, respect was certainly with both of them. Tom did not hate Fredo nor thought him useless, but saw him as being weak, and easily swayed by small friendships, and did not see the big picture. Fredo looked at Tom I am sure with a mixed eye, since really Tom was Sonny's friend and confidant.

Boy, I did not realize I had it in me!

As I've stated on this topic before, I think Puzo had a strategy when describing the siblings characteristics. That strategy was to provide contrast between them and with their father. Several of you have described those characteristics. Check them out again. They are all characteristics of the Don.

Like Sonny, he could rage and kill. His rage was internalized though; his demeanor was pacific most of the time.

Like Mike he was intellectual,cunning, patient, and persuasive. He knew when to compromise and when to wait for a better opportunity.

Like Fredo he was sentimental. He truly loved his family.

Like Connie and Tom? I'm not sure. Perhaps he was conflicted - feeling forced to do what was not in his nature, but which he felt circumstances forced upon him.

The kids were bits and pieces of the Don interacting with each other.


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