THIS DISCUSSION THREAD CONTAINS SPOILER MATERIAL ON "THE GODFATHER RETURNS" - DO NOT READ THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU WANT TO HAVE SOME STORYLINE FACTS REVEALED.

As TIS suggested, let's use this thread to discuss the GF Returns book. Please post under this heading if you want to talk about the contents of the book. This way we will not spoil it for anyone else who has not read or finished the book.


Don Cardi

Edit Note: To put the spoiler warning in a prominent location - SC

can you please also put chapters or page numbers. Just incase I read the first 30 pages and want to discuss it and then I get a spoiler for page 35 I will know not to look.

I'm about 40 pages in. So SPOILERS are included in what I've read so far...

I'm liking it so far. I love how the book is filling in the cracks, like the Tessio execuition and the tid-bits about roughing up the kids who raped Bonasara's daughter from the beginning of Part I.

I don't know how I feel about Michael flying a plane and Fredo being gay though. We'll see.

I agree DBC. The Tessio execution was nicely done and tying Geraci into the "history" (by noting that he was one of the former boxers who avenged Bonasera's daughter's attack) added some enjoyment.

I'm not real happy, so far, about the Sonny's daughter in college sub-plot, though.

The restaurant, "Two Toms", where the Michael-Barzini meeting was to have taken place, actually exists.

It's in Brooklyn, on the corner of 3rd Avenue and Union Street. No abmbiance whatsoever, food only slightly above average, a real "joint".

I met the owner's son (who worked there as a waiter) more than 25 years ago at poker club in Brooklyn I used to frequent. I ate there several times in those days, but hadn't been back there, strangely enough, until last summer.

The guy still works there (as a waiter), and we quickly remembered each other.

Maybe we should go there for dinner.

Just stay off Flatbush Avenue, though. There's a Dodgers doubleheader.

BTW - Winegardner doesn't have the "eyes for detail" that Puzo had. There was never any Dodgers-Phillies double header in April or May of 1955.

OK.... the connection to this Ambassador Shea looks like it could get interesting. Shea is apparently modeled after Joseph Kennedy.

I'm surprised, because Winegardner is a huge baseball fan/historian and has written a few books on the sport.

Maybe he meant Pittsburgh?

( 1955 Dodgers Schedule )

Just stay off Flatbush Avenue, though. There's a Dodgers doubleheader.[/b][/quote]As we begin to pick the book apart....

If Michael were coming from Long Beach to Union & 3rd, the best way to go in 1955 would probably have been straight across Atlantic Avenue to 3rd Avenue.

Irrespective of when the various parkways and expressways were completed, and when the Atlantic Beach Bridge was completed, I can't think of any route from Long Beach that would have taken him anywhere near the part of Flatbush Avenue that would be affected by traffic caused by a Dodgers game.

Man, the Dodgers started off that year 22-2

And remember where they finished that year!!!!

I read over 100 pages. I like it so far.

CHAPTER ONE QUESTION


In the first chapter, when the author is intruding Ace Geraci, he explains that he was part of the Tessio regime, right? Then the author goes on to say that Ace was one of the soldiers who carried out the job of revenging the attack on Amerigo Bonasera's daughter. If I remember correctly didn't the Don tell Hagen to give the job to Clemenza, who used his own guys to do the job?


Don Cardi

You are correct.

----------------------------------------
BONASERA (as he leaves the room)

Grazie, Godfather.

VITO CORLEONE

Prego.

(then, to Tom Hagen, after Bonasera leaves the room)

Ah, give this to ah, Clemenza. I want reliable people; people that aren't gonna be carried
away. I'm mean, we're not murderers, despite of what this undertaker says.
------------------------------------

Perhaps he was a member of Clemenza's crew 10 years earlier. In any case, either this is an error or somethign that should have been better explained.

Yep. I posted this same point in one of the other threads yesterday. Winegardner later expands on this, but doesn't clear up the mistake. (He writes that Paullie Gatto used Geraci as a free-lancer when they beat up the two young guys who attacked Bonasera's daughter).

I'm halfway thruought chapter 12 now, and I have to say I have been very disapointed. The characters are nothing like the REAL Corleones,Mikey and Kay making out in the movie theater? Fredo a bi(and I really didnt need to hear about how he had a hard time getting it up for the French Hooker)? You also gotta hate how Cunio and Strachi survived a shotgun and 2 bullet at close range attack, but havent been mentioned since. The new characters are a mess, but at least he is always dropping names as if to say "I read the first book" :rolleyes: Sonny's kid is going to be the new Lucy storyline and the Ambassator has uncanny parallels to Jack Woltz.However these new characters have been pulled down to adolecent "street gang" types. If it wasnt about The Corleones (which I have a hard time believing it actually was) it is an entertaining story. Reads a lot like The Last Don. Prehaps he read the wrong book.....?

As we continue to pick the book apart and spot errors....

Winegardner writes that in 1955, Rocco was not yet thirty years old.

Which would have made him under twenty when he was running a gas rationing coupon scam and when he whacked Paulie and got the promotion to top button man.

A little young for all of that, I think.... :rolleyes:

Also, in the scene where he introduces Kay's father, he writes how her parents had always "been in her corner", even the time they were visited by Federal Agents, who acused Mike of being a gangster and a murderer.

The two who visited Kay's home were NYC detectives (Phillips & Siriani), not federal agents.

So far, on the whole, I'm a bit disappointed, but, as I hit about page 100, the plot does seem to be thickening a bit.

Heyyyyy.... you can't say that. Winegardner knows more about "The Godfather" than any man alive!

:rolleyes:

I reaaaaaaaaaaaallly am losing interest in buying this book.

I am not reading the storyline, but admit I open and scan this thread. So should I not even bother or what??

Are you guys giving it a fair shot? Remember we can't expect perfection like the first one.

Just curious to know if I need to jump right into this book, or read it at my leisure.

Then again, I don't always agree with critics.

SC when you can, just post a "so far" review in the other thread, so I won't be tempted to read the story here ok? I think I know you at least well enough to trust your review.

TIS

Add to the list that Winegardner includes the Corleones in the "Five Families" of New York. (He drops the term "Five Families" by the way).

Add to the list that Winegardner includes the Corleones in the "Five Families" of New York. (He drops the term "Five Families" by the way). [/b][/quote]Who is he to try and take away one of the most discussed topics on this message board


I HOPE he doesn't rewrite the Fredo scene later in the book saying: Fredo turns to Neri KNOWING what is going to happen....

We'd have to hold Appleonya back if that happens

I saw the book at Wal-Mart for $17.00. Glad I saved my money. I read the original GF Novel and watched GF1 and 2. Bonesera's daughter kept her honor so how could she have been raped? She resisted that was why they beat her like an animal. Fredo a Bi? Fredo was described as big and strong in the book. Cazale didn't come off as a bi in the movies. He portrayed a Fredo that is stupid. The author gave a radio interview in which he mentioned filling in the gaps, Michael being made, ect. It looks like he is rewriting history.

Page 269 now, and Oh God, make it stop please.WTF is the Fred Corleone show? Are you kidding me. So you mean to tell me Fredo was the host of a TV show in the west when he went on the run from Mike in Havana and ended up in NY? I dont think so! They got rid of the Tahoe house because of bugs, but it was clearly there Anthony's communion night when the attempted hit took place,I dont think they could have rebulit it that fast. Didnt Kay say in GF3 that was the first time she'd ever been to Sicily? But no, the movies were wrong again :rolleyes: I think Iven mentioned it was a little strange for Stracchi and Cunio to still be living. And its extremely stupid for a guy who is supposedly so close to Mike to never have been seen or mentioned, but he was the only who orcastrated Fredo's betreyal, which I must add, is so absurd there is no way Fredo could have come up with that. :rolleyes: Oh and how could I forget about Clemenza's death. He really explained that. I love how Fredo thought he was pop's favorite and he says to Tom "Did you ever think about that?" huh, did you ever think about that. Make Fredo a bi, make Fredo a retard,sent Fredo off on some rediculious plot twist. I'm a decent character Mark, and you fucked me over!

Stay tuned for my review,rather my angry rants, when I finish the whole thing.

I hope they don't make this into a movie.

My two cents:

On the first read-through, the GFR book makes a decent effort to fill in the gaps. However, overall, the book strikes me as a 'forced' effort. Perhaps my view is jaded and my expectations are based on the GF book, GF1 and GF2.

As with GF3, for someone for whom this story is their 'padrino point of entry', it will be well received. However for me (and I suspect many of you), the GF book and the first two movies (in particular) really told the entire story. If someone wanted to flesh out the Corleone story, I think that the period of Vito's rise to power might be a worthwhile effort. But other than that, any other effort, including this one, is just an effort to embellish a completed story.

TIS - I respect your view that perhaps some of us are too critical of the book. However, this guy knew the risks before he opened his MS Word document. There are too many people that know the story lines and dialog for him to tinker with subtle aspects of the story. Perhaps we are just trying to preserve the beauty and integrity of the original work. I admit I am biased; I like the original GF novel, GF1 and GF2. I think that GF3 was a big mistake. GFR is a solid effort, but I question whether the author's real intent was to put the icing on the cake or take orders for more cakes.

I would hate to see Michael Corleone become the next Zatoichi or James Bond - at that point he would be a real serial killer ;-) I respect this man's work, I appreciate his level of effort and his respect for tbe original body of work, but I think that the book does more damage than good. I will read this through a few more times; perhaps I will loosen up a bit. But for now, I think that this is an example of gilding the lily.

Any reaction folks?

Maybe he saw 'Dog Day Afternoon' too many times, and mixed him up with Pachino.

That pretty much sums up my feelings about what I've read so far.

He (Winegardner) had some big shoes to fill, and his book doesn't live up to its predecessor. Perhaps if we all weren't such "Godfather" fanatics we'd be more "open" to his sequel, but apparently we're not (open) to it and I guess thats the price Winegardner has to pay for writing a follow-up to such a beloved book.

SPOILERS ABOUT FREDO!!!!!!!!


That pretty much sums up my feelings about what I've read so far.

He (Winegardner) had some big shoes to fill, and his book doesn't live up to its predecessor. Perhaps if we all weren't such "Godfather" fanatics we'd be more "open" to his sequel, but apparently we're not (open) to it and I guess thats the price Winegardner has to pay for writing a follow-up to such a beloved book. [/b][/quote]SC,
I am probably NOT as far into the book yet as you are. I am really trying to read this with an open mind and without high expectations. I gotta say though, so far for the most part I am enjoying it somewhat, that is except that he made Fredo into a bi-sexual! I don't know about anyone else here, but even though Fredo was not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, I always liked the character. Hey, how can I believe that this guy was a bi-sexual when he was actually banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

But I intend to go on with an open mind while reading this book.


Don Cardi

That was in room 101.......in room 102 there were 2 cocktail waiters :p :p