That was in room 101.......in room 102 there were 2 cocktail waiters :p :p [/quote]And in Room 103 was a waiter and a waitress.

Who ever would've thought that Vito Spatafore would've been gay? 'Nuf said.

I really don't have a problem with that Fredo storyline. In fact, I think it's rather bold!

Granted, I'm only 136pp into it at this point and I'm not sure how it ends up, but -- "not that there's anything wrong with that", right?

That was unexpected. Vito was unexpected. Is it bold, sure. Is it unexpected, sure! Does it create controversy and discussion? Well, of course!

I have no problem w/ it.

As far as strict facts and whatnot... SURE, it would've been great if everything fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Of course! But I, for one, cannot read a novel while at the same time be fact-checking. Maybe it's just me.

The book is VERY well written. My only problem is that I can't read it at very long lengths due to time constraints. But I tell you, if I had 2-3 days where I had no other obligations, than surely I'd've finished by now! (Alas, finally I look forward to the laundromat so I can get a couple more chapters in

On my first pass-through, I am not at all concerned with continuity. Being bothered by that would just be a distraction to me. While I'm only 136pp into it, I'm more excited about where the story is going than "OMG, he fucked something up!" I just can't read like that on the first pass.

Sure, if I was to narrow it down as a research project, I would have some questions for the author. And surely, he'd have some answers for "why". Err, umm,.... "artistic license," I'm sure he'd say. And then I'd say, "well, WTF?? You can't just change shit around like that!!"

Maybe it's just me. Of COURSE I think of the Corleones as a REAL family and hate to see even the most minute detail differ! But at the same time, I do realize that this is another person's interpretation of events. And, quit a unique one at that.

And, for that, I cannot denounce his effort.

That said, I look forward to my next reading to see what happens next! :p

In actuality the Don had his doubts about Michael in the Puzo novel. However Michael quickly put those fears to rest.

Man this book is killing me. It's dull and I can't believe I read through it all. You guys are right, it is so forced. Poor Fredo has to be bi...What's up with everyone being bi or gay when they die...all of a sudden it comes out...Im wondering if the "Arafat was gay" headline will be in the newspapers shortly...Im glad I only paid 10 bucks for this garbage...the sad part is that this was the best the Puzo estate could do...I can only imagine what the losing manuscripts were about..."So Fredo comes in and he takes on Don Darth Vader for the right to take over the Deathstar"..."Michael Corleone begins to shrink and becomes a midget who searches for the Lord Of the Rings"....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!! Wake me up when this is over...

What I wanna know is who actually sabotage dthe plain? At one point the book makes it seem like the Chicago outfidid/ Another point it makes us believe the Cleveland don did it/ And now Michael

In a 20+ page sequence covering Michael's childhood through his military service, Winegardner has him attending Columbia rather than Dartmouth.

Since there was no reason in the plot for that change, and since Dartmouth is where he met Kay, it makes me wonder how carefully Winegardner read the original in the first place.

PL - that is the critical point - the dude changed pieces of baseline story! He did not create a 'literary derivative', he changed some of the core tenets of what we have embraced as 'truth' (as much as a fiction can be true).

Perhaps he had contractual freedom to do so. Perhaps his ego told him that he could revise the GF series now that Puzo is dead. I am leaning toward the latter. In the first place, it would require someone of great skill or insanity to even think about writing a follow up novel - especially when so many people know the novel, the movie dialogue and the story logic intimately.

The more that I think about this, the more I see that the author decided to modify 'history' to make it 'his story'. Again, I respect his right to write books, but I do not recall a survey reporting that we thought that the GF series needed a makeover. Sure, fill in the gaps, write a tale that logically fits into the existing framework, but don't change what was there just to create your personal version of the truth.

The GFR is like Tara Reid's breast augmentation (revealed during a recent wardrobe malfunction) - it looked great until the cover came off. When the cover came off, the true skills and intentions of the surgeon were revealed.

Well put, DP.

I just wonder if the changes were intentional or not, since the ones we've cited here (NYC detectives changed to federal agents, Dartmouth to Columbia, etc.) don't seem to be made to further the plot in any way.

I'm thinking maybe it was simply carelessness.

Have you finished it, BTW?

I have done one read-through - plan to give this a highly detailed look starting next week.

Mike dropping out to join the CC?! I dont think so.
"Why dont you just quit college and join the Army"
"I did" That to me, pretty much tells me Mike was in school during Pearl Harbor. There was also a passage about him wanting to join the Air Force but he was under 5'10". I'm not an expert on this subject, but when I was a kid my dad took me to see one of those B52s and my dad asked a question about hight requirements for the "belly gunner" or whatever that guy was called, because the bubble was way to small for him to fit in. The tour guide responded that at that time a lot of guys werent much taller than 5'7".Again, I'm not too knowledgeable in that. I know there's more things I'm fogetting to complain about, but I know I'll remember them when I post this.

The one thing I think is somewhat humerous is the Kennedy character.

EDIT- Ah yes, you see I remembered. In the flashback part of the book, Michael would rather go to school than visit his father in the hospital.Fredo tries to make him go, but it doesnt work. Sonny would have kicked the living daylights out of him, not to mention the fact he would probably go out of respect for his father,wanting to be a man like him or not.

EDIT- B17 not B52

Well, I finished it friday night. I have to say the end left a better taste than the beginning. At last we see that,above all that we have just read, there may be hope for Winegardener- he doesnt try to explain Tom's death. Darn, I really wanted to hear that Tom was chosen for the first flight to Jupiter, but didnt make it. :rolleyes: Maybe Winegardener plans to bring Tom back, and say "Oh, Tom, he didnt die....he just....was living in a cave for the time period GF3 took place.Yeah, yeah thats it." Despite all, it was a decent read, as long as your not a Godfather fan. If I have enough time tomarrow, I'll write a review and post it.

Sarcasm and all? I can't wait... :rolleyes: :p

Maybe someone who read the book already, may answer such a question.
If the book does not interfere with movies, does it accept their plots thoroughly? Does it try to justify, or prepare ground to, the inconsistences and flaws that we find even in the 2 part, nothing to be said of the 3-d?
From what you say i see that it doesn't follow Puso’s ideas strictly, including coppola’s too.
We know wery well, for instance, that Puso was against the killing of Fredo, that he felt it to be absolutely impossible, and it was Coppola alone who insisted on it.
But in other things?
We know, that Mike and Kay had two boys in the first two years, then after a few years more there could be Mary, so they must have 3 children.
As to GF3 , It always seemed to me impossible to believe in. It has simply nothing to do with the first two. I don’t say that it is a bad movie, maestro didn’t know how to make bad movies . But it is written about absolutely different people. All of them, especially Michael, had to become “stupid and soft”, short-sighted, to loose all the will, character, brains, cunning, all their abilities carefully created by the novel, to start acting talking and thinking as they do in almost every moment of this movie.
That relates to the shocking, obvious and un-mafia-like flaws in their business actions, and organisation of security.
But most of all, personalities! We hear nothing in the book of Vinnie. and Antobello, supposing that he is about 70 in 1980, we should think that he stood godfather to Connie being 18 or 19, when Vito was already 40? And why should Vito grant such a honor to such a salad? And my oft-repeated point about Anthony, who is still unable to get his law degree, being 30, at least. Degeneration?
The most important of all is that Michael would never give children to Kay. If something is impossible, that is. After all that we see and read, especially after the stare he gives her when he catches her visiting children, we must be convinced that he would never let her even approach them. That by killing his child she made him feel such pain, disappointment an even hatred, that it killed all his love and respect for her, whatever it could be, and killed forever. She could have no illusions about that, she wished to do it, she said “there would be no way Michael, no way you could ever forgive me.” And there is no way. Even if he didn’t kill her, that never means that he could forgive. And certaily, he is not an idiot to send his children to the only person in the world who would most surely teach them to hate him.
And of course, he would never say “I love you…Forgive me everything...” NEVER! And he would never complaint being feared. Anyone else could. Not he.
I think that he would rather marry again, it would be more natural for him.
And he was not the man to dream every night about losing her, and children he is supposed to have given up himself. He is not so sentimental and snotty, and there is a lack of logic in all this.
And that goddamned legitimacy.
Where could they find a single clue about it’s being of any real importance to Mike? From GF2 we may conclude that he had already changed his wiews on the necessity of being legitimate .
And he is not the man to be so concience-eaten about Fredo. He is too cold and ruthless already for that. He would regret, perhaps, but never repent. I think that they squeesed the GF3 out of themselves cursing, and prettily forgot in 16 years what was it all about.
But i must apologise for the length of this post - I feel myself being carried avay by the smell of blood
So, does the book try to make GF3 possible?

*bump!*

"Come on, be serious, I asked you a question."
(Kay impatiently to Michael, Chapter 25)

SPOIILERS!SPOILERS!SPOILERS!SPOILERS!

Boy, I'll tell you something, I am about halfway through this book and man, it's really becoming a struggle to pick it up and read it! This book just hasn't "pulled me in" yet. I must say that so far it's been a dissapointment for me. The best part so far for me was the "initiation ceremonies." When the plane crashed, I realy thought that they book had started to shift into high gear, but lo and behold, a few pages later, it slowed right back down again. So far it just seems that this writer has tried to "FILL IN" the book in many parts with unnecessary sub plots, if you can even call them that. A huge dissapointment so far. But I'll still give it a chance as I have about half the book left to read.
Feel like a kid back in school who is forcing himself to finish a book assignment!

Don Cardi

What part are you on? In the last few chapters, it gets worse, much worse. I couldnt concentrate on the words or what was being said, and the only other time that has ever happened to me was reading "Once and Future King" in 10th grade.

Don Cardi:

Thank you for your honest feedback - I thought it was just me. I am on my second read. I am finding myself reading some, skipping ahead to see if it grabs me, seeing that it doesn't, going back to see if what I skipped made a difference, etc.

What I do see is related to an observation by PL. He mentioned (an was quite right) that the novel diverges from GF1 and GF2. Looking back, I do not think any one really minded that divergence, we simply became either book fans and/or movie fans and did not make a big deal over the differences.

GFR is trying to reconcile the differences between the novel and the movie series. I think that Winegardner should have either decided to extend the novel -leaving the existing truth intact or should have decided to bridge the movies, but leaving the existing truth intact. But not try to do both.

I wish Winegardner no ill will, but I hope that no one gets 'happy feet' and tries to make a movie out of this for 'the next generation of GF fans'. I am still working my way through GFR in an iterative fashion, but I have read enough pockets of detail to know that this book is trying to do too much - recall the past, fill in the gaps, bridge the novel and the movies, add new story lines and change/expand the characters of the Fredo and Tom.

Believe me, if after multiple reads GFR grabs me, I will gladly come back to the boards and sing its praises. But as noted by Don Cardi, right now, this is some tough sledding for me.

If any of the old timers (CD, Snake or Turnbull) are still around, I would love to get their opinions of GFR. They were usually pretty-dead on correct in their observations of GF issues.

Let's be clear. Save your money. To late? Don't waste
your time. Anyone of us could have thumbed through
the "The Gofather" and written a better GF Returns.
This is boring boring boring ad nausium. Vito should
never have made it out of Italy alive let alone built an empire. Random House is gutless in my view and didn't even attempt to have Its stooge-pardon me- ITS
contest winner attempt to even take a shot, at the very
least, at entertaining its audience. I'd rather read Star Teck 20 or whatever the latest is.GFR's endless commentery on what Puzo's characters are thinking
is affront to anyone over the age of 6. It is obvious there
wasn't an Italian with a hundred miles at anytime this
book was being put together let alone a Puzo. I guess
Publishing and Hollywood aren't so far apart.

Thanks to everyone. Now I'm perfectly determined not to spend my time and money. I only have one question of sheer curiosity: What do Kay's parents do in this book? What could their part in the action possibly be? And, how everything ends?
If anyone would post spoiler on this account, I'll owe him a favor!

An observation - in a B.Dalton's book store in DC last week, the GFR was on the Best Seller's table on on a vertical rack near the front door. I passed by there today - GFR was removed from the Best Seller's table and the vertical rack was moved waaaay to the far side of the glass entrance. In fact, you would have to make an effort to find it. Mind you, it was not placed on the New Fiction table or the Ideal Gift table. It was not on the racks behind the cashiers.

Moreover, it had been 'priced to move' and was still not moving. The orignal price was $26.95 - they marked it down to $18.16 ($20.00 for non-book club members). There were still plenty of books on the rack.

I am slowly being purged of my guilt for not being able to connect with GFR. When a new release cannot be easily found at the start of the Christmas shopping season, that is not a good signal. It is still early, so this book may still turn the corner, but right now, at least in one major location, the book is wearing cement shoes.

Anyone else have 'bookstore' location assessments?

Amazon has lowered the price from $18.86 to $17.79.

Math is not my specialty, but what is that - a 33% hardback price reduction 2 weeks after release? I am sure that the principles of supply and demand will kick in at some point and the price will drop to a level at which consumers will buy the book, but this is trending toward being a 'dime-store novel' while still in hardback.

JL - Thanks - I went to Amazon and found the figures you posted. Some additional info - Amazon also offers 'in store pickup' for $16.17. If my handy dandy calculator is correct, that is a 40% mark down 2 weeks after release - incredible.

If anyone sees a hardback price of $13.48 (from a legitimate vendor - there are some small independents who are selling it from $14.48 and up), then we're at the 50% mark and definitely viewing a reverse auction. I think that the average hardback market price wil bottom out at 14.99 by Christmas.

I am almost through with this miserable excuse for a GF sequel. And not a moment too soon. I felt as if I had to buy and read it because of my activity on these boards. But I haven't regretted buying any book as much since I was forced to buy "McCarthy" by Roy Cohn (>spits on floor) for a class in graduate school.
Connie complicit in Fredo's murder? :rolleyes:
Molinari's bodyguards practicing karate moves at a Dons' meeting? :rolleyes:
Neri talking? :rolleyes:
Michael necking with Kay? :rolleyes:
Me, sticking with this pile of dogshit?

C'mon, Turnbull, tell us what you really think about the book. :p

I, like many of us here, have been reading Turnbull's posts for three years now. I can't remember reading any of his messages that contained more disgust than the one above.

FWIW - I agree with him.

I wanted to like this book so much. As a fan of the Godfather book and movies I wanted this to be at the very least a decent read. It wasn't!

The first half of the book had far too many large sections on nothing. Pointless bullshit just to explain away plot points used later in the book.

The second half improved but only slightly.

Overall the book was mudled (even allowing for the fact that the timescale was so fractured), and had none of the class of the original novel or GFI & GFII.

Winegardner even has Michael sitting at a cheap (IKEA type) desk with his guests sitting on orange plastic seats!! And the "Fred Corleone show"??? Enough already!

Another thing, why no mention of Frankie Pentangelli? He plays a fairly large part in GFII but has absolutely no mention in any part of this book? Was he abducted by aliens????

I have so much anger that I'm finding it hard to be articulate about it.....STUPID F**K!

I wonder what FFC thinks about this? He will be closer to the thought processes of Mario Puzo than maybe anybody else. Do you have his e-mail address JG? It would be interesting to hear his comments!

*Spoilers Below* (If it even matters anymore with this book)


Besides the general badness of this book, the few things that really made me want to burn this book after reading it were:

1) Nick Geraci. Michael's "most dangerous adversary yet".... Are you kidding me?
2) Michael and Kay making out in a theater "like kids".... Ughh
3) 'The Fred Corleone Show'.... nuff said
4) Unarmed Tom Hagen and a civilian knock off the Head of Chicago and his two armed body guards.... nuff said again
5) Any chapter before 30 that mentions Francesca Corleone.... I knew they were building up some storyline for her by boring me half to death in the first half of the book.

I followed the treat a while because in Holland I can't buy the book. I read a lot of bad reviews, so that suggests that I shouldn't buy the book. And even now, Turnbull is closing the poll. When a respected board member like him says something like this......well then just listen to him and shut up. Probably the book is real bad.

So Turnbull, I hope you don't lie (ofcourse not, but this is just a chance for a possible review of comments) because your word is kind of law on this board.

Thanks, MM, but nobody's word is law in matters of opinion. My opinions aren't worth more than anyone else's opinions. To my mind, a good book is a book that you think is good, a bad book is a book that you think is bad.
But I gave my honest opinion about "The Godfather Returns":
IT SUCKS!!!

I followed the treat a while because in Holland I can't buy the book. I read a lot of bad reviews, so that suggests that I shouldn't buy the book. And even now, Turnbull is closing the poll. When a respected board member like him says something like this......well then just listen to him and shut up. Probably the book is real bad.

So Turnbull, I hope you don't lie (ofcourse not, but this is just a chance for a possible review of comments) because your word is kind of law on this board. [/b][/quote]This is one of those books that is so bad, you may want to read it anyway. Kind of like watching an Ed Wood movie.