I do not know if this was talked about here but does anyone think Fredo knew he was going to die when Mike hugged him at their mothers wake? Or when he was in the boat?

DS

DS thank you for starting these two very thoughtful threads.

I think Apple has an opinion about whether or not Fredo knew, but she is probably too shy to come right out with it.

I think Fredo did not know. At mama Crleone's funeral Fredo thought that Michael had forgiven him for selling him out to Roth, and afterward he was living on the estate all fat and happy. If he had a clue Michael was going to kill him I think he would not have stayed there, but instead he would have left Nevada, and perhaps even the country.

Thank you Dontomasso for your kind words. But I believe that he knew he was done for. He seemed to be living very depressed and just waiting for the time when he was going to be killed. He said the Hail Mary on the boat and he was sitting faceing away from Rocco. He must have known that it was time. He also knew that if anyone found out that he had crossed his brother (even if he did not know he was at the time) and Michael did not do anything about it that the other families would think Michael was soft. I believe Fredo was much smarter then people thought. He knew Michael had to kill him in case it all leaked out.

DS

DS

You think he was so down on himself that he allowed himself to be killed? That is tantamount to suicide.

He looked up to Michael as a father and he let him down and he knew Michael would never trust or maybe love him again. He was shattered after Michael told him he meant nothing to him anymore. Fredo was lost. There was nothing left for him. Fredo knew nothing in life but trying to please Michael. He let his brother down in a huge way. I believe he knew he was going to die, and yes if Rocco did not kill him I believe he would have killed himself. Hey, did you know that Jack Nicolson was offered the part of Michael but turned it down I just read it on a web site.

DS

no i agree with DT, i believe Fredo is too weak of a person to face his own death, if u remember when he was at the New Years Eve party and Micheal said he knew it was him, he ran and didnt return home for a long time when he believed micheal when he said he would be safe. Fredo isnt that smart and i believe he always kind of had something against Micheal. For example, when Fredo took Moe green's side instead of his brother. And when they were in Cuba when they were having drinks Fredo was distraught and said "why couldnt we spend time like this before"

He had no idea. Cazale's portrayal had Fredo return to his true humble, shy, and introverted self. In addition, he was wracked with guilt. Just think about it. How likely is it that anyone of you would think that one of your siblings would murder you?

Michael was so overcome with wanting power that he had to kill Fredo in case anyone found out. Fredo knew this I believe.

DS

I agree. Fredo was dumb and naive. He wanted forgiveness and thought the hug from Michael meant they were brothers again.

I don't think Fredo knew either. The hug at the funeral, to Fredo, was an act of forgiveness (or so he thought); as far as the fishing trip goes, he still didn't have a clue. He couldn't possibly have been that dumb or naive enough to continue on with is fishing trip knowing he was gonna get killed.


TIS

DS-

I don't agree with you that Fredo knew. Initially when he realized that Michael found out while they were in Cuba, Fredo in all likelyhood ran from Michael more out of embarressment than fear. Yes, Fredo was definatley afraid for his life, but I think that he was more ashamed for what he did. After Michael tells him "Your nothing too me now," it probably crushed him to no end. But when Michael went and hugged him at his mother's funeral, it gave Fredo the idea that Mike was finally forgiving him and that now everything would be the way that it once was between the brothers. I really believe that Fredo loved Mike and looked up to him. I believe that Fredo really thought that by getting involved with Ola and Roth that he was finally doing something good for the family, and that if it worked out, Mike would finally be proud of him. There is no doubt in my mind that Fredo lived with the guilt of not doing anything when his father was shot, and he therefore spent the rest of his life looking for his brother's approval in everything that he attempted to do. Here was Fredo, involved in his father's business, part of the Corleone business, who could not do a thing about his own father being shot by their enemies. And along comes Michael, the "all american" younger brother, who was not involved in the family business, who never wanted to be involved in the family business, now taking full control of the family business and avenging his father's death. Stepping all over his older Brother Fredo ( "I was stepped all over"). Don't you think that this ran through Fredo's mind? Don't you think that Fredo lived with this feeling of being useless and living in Mike's shadow for the rest of his life? Deep down fully knowing that he ( Fredo ) was not ever and would never be capable of doing things like his "kid" brother Michael was able to do? And now, a deal that sounds good comes along, one that could help the family, one that will finally show my brother that I am capable of doing something for this family, one that will make him proud of me, doing something on my own! That's how deep Fredo's love for Michael was! Fredo really loved Mike and in his twisted way thought that he would be helping Mike. And once Mike made him believe that he was forgiven, Fredo would never think that the brother that he loved so much and looked up to would ever have him killed! . Poor Fredo.

As much as I love the Michael Corleone character and Al Pacino as an Actor, I despise him in two scenes, the first being when he hugs Fredo and gives Neri "the look" and the second being when he is looking out over the lake after having Connie call Anthony back to the house, fully knowing that Neri would be assasinating his own brother. Cold Bastard! Two times that Pacino make's the viewer despise Michael. That's what makes Pacino such a great actor!

Don Cardi

.......

Strangely enough, this is one of the few times I find myself in agreement with Appple.

Fredo may have been stupid, but he wasn't that stupid. His stupidity lay in the fact that he thought his brother had forgiven him. Michael wasn't killed in the attack he helped set up, so he probably figured "no harm, no foul."

He never saw it coming. If he knew, he wouldn't have lived on the Tahoe estate with Michael, or been dumb enough to get in a boat alone with Al Neri.

He never saw it coming. If he knew, he wouldn't have lived on the Tahoe estate with Michael, or been dumb enough to get in a boat alone with Al Neri. [/qb][/QUOTE]


I think he knew and like you say he was living at the lake with his family knowing his time was up. He had to know that he was done for when he got in the boat. Like I said up top he was sitting faceing away from Neri. I know it was a small boat but he was sitting faceing away and saying the Hail Mary. I know the Hail Mary was a way for him to catch fish, but he was alao making his peace with God I think before the bullet came by saying that prayer.

DS

Interesting theory DS! I never looked at it that way, him making his peace with God when saying the Hail Mary. However I am still not convinced that he knew. Fredo was supposed to go on that fishing trip with Michael's son Anthony and obviously Neri. Michael pulled Anthony from making that trip at the very last second. If Fredo thought that there was a chance that he was going to get clipped once Anthony was no longer going with him and Neri on the boat, Fredo would have said " Well since Anthony now is not coming on the fishing trip, then we'll postpone it until a later date when Anthony can come." After all, the basic reason on Fredo's part for making that fishing trip was to teach Anthony how to catch fish. So if there was any inkling in Fredo's mind that he was going to be killed, he could have easily opted out of making that trip once Anthony was called away. Fredo never knew what was coming.


Don Cardi

ugh I mean Apple paging Apple to the Godfather Trilogy forum, A.S.A.P.

I think Fredo knew ever since the kiss-of-death from Havana. When Michael hugged him at their mother's funeral, I believe was just a condolence. Fredo may have been dumb-witted, but when Connie went out and told Tony his father was taking him to Nevada, Fredo's reaction told it all. He knew his time had come. When Al Neri came around, Fredo was ready and quoted: "lets go, Al". He knew he would never return alive from that fishing trip.

Watch the scene closely. Fredo's hug is one of true love, one that signifies "you love me again, I love you Michael, now the hurt will be gone and I am forgiven."

As for the scene prior to getting on the boat, I always thought that it was more out of disgust on Fredo's part that the kid would not be going on the trip with him as Fredo was really looking forward to taking the kid fishing. But I will have to watch that scene more closely next time.


Don Cardi

Watch the scene closely. Fredo's hug is one of true love, one that signifies "you love me again, I love you Michael, now the hurt will be gone and I am forgiven."

As for the scene prior to getting on the boat, I always thought that the way Fredo talks to Al was more out of disgust on Fredo's part that the kid would not be going on the trip with him as Fredo was really looking forward to taking the kid fishing. But I will have to watch that scene more closely next time.


Don Cardi

Yes, but like I said up top in this thread Fredo excepted the fact he was going to die. He knew when Michael called his son back that he did it for a reason. Fredo knew that when that happened his fate was sealed. He knew his murder was only moments away. He did not fight it. He said the Hail Mary to make his peace with God.

DS

Geez! You go to one dinner with the crew, sit across from TB, sit next to Plaw, and have SC whisper in your ear from time to time and all of a sudden you're an expert!

Just kidding DS. While I respect your point of view here, I just dont agree with it. But then again, that's what makes this movie such a great movie! Ten people could watch the same scene over and over again, and the same ten will come up with ten different viewpoints!

Poor Fredo.


Don Cardi

I don't see or sense anything at all that would lead one to believe in Don Smitty's fishing trip suppositions. A significant Fredo characteristic was his comparative stupidity. If he was stupid enough to facilitate a hit on his brother, then it follows that he would be too stupid to figure out that his brother, of all people, intended to murder him.

I think the dramatic irony of the Mike/Fredo hug being followed by the Mike/Neri glance gives us all the information we need on this one.

We are expertly manipulated in this scene, following Connie's heartfelt plea for peace between her brothers, hearing the swelling music, seeing the look of hope and astonishment on Fredo's face - the hug, as TIS once related, makes us think whoopdedoo, Mike's got a heart after all. And Michael is solemnly observed in that scene by Connie, his children, Tom, Teresa, and many other family members. To all intents and purposes, Fredo has been forgiven. The closup of Fredo's hands clutching Mike's jacket indicate the intensity of his feeling, he thinks he has got his little brother back and that everything's alright. And why not? Reconciled at their mother's funeral no less? This is what we're supposed to believe too.

It is of course the glance to Al Neri which FFC uses to bring this all crashing down - but me, you, Neri and Mike are the only people who realise this. We are specifically not shown anybody else reacting to this almost imperceptable, unspoken exchange - not even Tom, and certainly not Fredo. This ugly, tragic instant is pushed onto us and Neri, who quietly looks down. Mike is cold, Fredo is done for, and we are left to deal with the tragedy. If Fredo had any inkling, the tragedy of this episode would be greatly diminished, and whilst we like to think of the characters as autonomous psychological beings, they function first and foremost as puppets in the tragedy. I hope I expressed that okay, as you may be learning I am not the most concise of posters!

Joolsie:

Kudos. Your's is one of the most intelligent posts I've ever read on this Board.

DS

Why thank you Olivant, means a lot coming from you

That one sentence sums it up perfectly. Excellent post Joolsie!


Don Cardi

Notice this sentence, the very last words of Fredo before he dies.

Holy Mary -- MOTHER of God -- pray for us sinners

1) I can imagine that someone may ask for forgiveness from god when he is aware of his impending death.
2) He says these words aloud, in Neri's presence - Fredo would presumably try not to appear silly before Neri by saying a prayer for catching a fish, unless these words had a greater meaning for him.

ps: I am not very familiar with christianity.Is this a common prayer, would it be normal for people to say this prayer often in their houses(aloud)? Can someone clarify...

Fredo was saying the prayer to catch a fish. It was a secret good luck ritual he'd used since childhood and he told Anthony about it. He told Anthony he'd catch a fish using their 'secret'.

He didn't know.

As for the 'Hail Mary' prayer itself, it's one of the earliest taught to Catholic children. If one learns the Rosary, and depending upon how religious a particular family or person is, then yes it's possible that it can be used often.

But even if not recited often it's pretty much embedded into the brain of anyone who received a Catholic upbringing.

Apple

Ofcourse

I think that he didnt know....