And this is where I disagree. If there is malice or intention, then there is the action of doing something with the intnet to hurt someone. Yes there was the jealousy factor on Fredo's part. But he did not set out to get revenge on his brother intentionally because of his own jealousy. He found a situation that offered him the opportunity to show his brother that he was not as dumb as everyone thought. A situation where he was mislead into thinking that if he provided some information, he could really help out his own family, on his own, without the guidance of his brother. Where in the end, if his information helped with the negotiations he could say to Mike " See, it was my own doing that got this deal done." But he only realized after the attempt on Mike that the information that he provided was used to help out with a hit against Mike. Fredo's words to Ola in that phone conversation are : "You guys lied to me -- I don't want you to call me anymore."
Once the hit attempt was made on Michaelk, Fredo realized that he was mislead, that he messed up, and he was now scared.

His rant about being stepped over, about doing something that could help the family and finding something where there was something in it for him, was not one of addmission of intentional malice to get revenge on Mike, but more of a rant to justify in his own mind that he did not do anything wrong, and as he said in that rant " I didn't know that it was gonna be a hit." So being of the mindset that Fredo was all of his life, his ignorance, and his hunger for family recognition and respect was the driving force in his decision to provide information to Roth.

In this scenario it was the presense of ignorance and sheer stupidity and ABSCENCE of malice or intent.

Fredo never intended to hurt Michael, he just thought that he could help, on his own.


Don Cardi

"...And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that - he said that you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help and close the deal fast it'd be good for the family..."

These are Fredo's own words from the boathouse conversation. The first thing he mentions is the offer of something in it for him if he helped THEM out, because his brother the DON was being tough on negotiations. Stupidity was certainly involved, because if Fredo had an iota of intelligence he might have realized that Michael had his reasons for being 'tough' on negotiations. But while he never foresaw or inteded for Michael to be killed/injured...it's clear from his confession that Fredo put his own gain ahead of that of the family.

I don't think he was trying to prove to Michael he could handle something on his own...because if that were the case he might've thought to report to Michael that he'd been approached by Ola with that proposition in the first place. If he'd looked an inch beyond his jealousy and resentment at having been stepped over, he might have thought that Michael should decide what was 'good for the Family', not Hyman Roth & Johnny Ola.

What hooked him into working with Roth's people was the promise of 'something in it for him'. On his own (more of Fredo's own words).

We can see in the boathouse scene that Michael doesn't have to do much to draw out of Fredo the underlying reasons behind the betrayal. Ignorance and stupidity were of course factors in Fredo's decision to work with Roth. But he had been raised in this business. Others have mentioned that he might not have worked with Roth against older brother Sonny under the same circumstances.

Malice and intent and personal gain, over the Family, over his brother were the prominent and underlying reasons for what Fredo did. He admitted it himself. There's no way around it, even if he didn't realize it was going to be 'a hit'.

Apple

For some rerason I don't think Fredo would have betrayed Sonny they way he did Michael. If anything, Sonny probabloy would have been smart enough to give Fredo "something" even if it wasn't really "something." Fredo feared Sonny, but he underestimated his younger brother.

Of course the whole premise of Sonny being alive turns on whether he dodged the assassination attempt, and it implies that he ended up deciding not to go into the City to kill Carlo. This leaves the question what would he have done with/to Carlo?

Carlo would still have been found out for attempting to set up Sonny.


And Apple, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Fredo betrayal. No matter what anyone tells me, I do NOT believe that there was EVER an act of Malice on Fredo's part to set up his own brother. It was an act of self service, without Fredo ever realizing that he was putting Mike's life in jeapordy.

Michael's act against Fredo was a Malicious act. He intentionally ordered the killing of Fredo.

Fredo's act was not a malicious act, he did not set out to hurt his brother. Absence of Malice.


Don Cardi

Yes, it was an act of self service and true, Fredo did not realize he was putting Michael's life in jeapordy.

He may not have intentionally committed an ACT of malice, but malice was behind his actions. If it were not, he would not have intentionally worked with and for Hyman Roth behind Michael's back.

And whatever the promised and/or unforseen outcome, that is exactly what he did.

Which of course...is why he eventually had to die.

But that's another thread... !!

Apple

With that being said, do you think that if Sonny was alive, and Fredo betrayed him the way that he did Mike, would he have had Fredo killed?


Don Cardi

Probably.

And he wouldn't even wait until their mother was dead.

In fact, he'd probably kill him himself, right then & there at the moment he discovered Fredo to be the TRAITOR.

Apple

Nah, Sonny was a hot head, no question. But he had a good heart and was of the family mentality like his father. He would have kicked Fredos ass, but I don't think he would have had him killed.

Don Cardi

I agree that Sonny would not have had Fredo killed. He WAS a hothead, but he often regretted the things he did or said when he was angry. Witness how he tried to apologize to Tom for the "Pop had Genco" remark, even though it was true that Tom was not a wartime consigliere. He had a soft spot for those he loved, and I think that he lacked the ruthlessness to kill his own brother.

That being said, I also think that if Sonny were Don, Fredo would NOT have betrayed the family. Most of his anger and envy was aimed at being stepped over so that his younger brother could take over. Aside from the killings in Louie's, what had Michael really done to deserve the role of Don. Fredo and Sonny had been raised in the business. I think that also had a great deal to do with Fredo's anger. He saw Michael as a Johnny-come-lately who was being handed the keys to the executive washroom without having earned them. IMHO, that just added to the jealousy he felt.

I'm sure that prior to the act of betrayal, Michael never dreamed he'd need to have his own brother killed either.
Michael had alot of time to decide what to do with Fredo. Hot-tempered Sonny would not have been able to put the same thought into it.

You never know what a man might be driven to do.

SB is correct, Fredo would never have betrayed Sonny the way hid did Michael...further proof that malice toward Mike (even without the knowledge of a 'hit') was the driving motivation behind his assistance to Roth.

Apple

The Apple Answer