I don't know if this has been discussed before. If it has, sorry.

Did Fredo know, when he was taken out in the boat (after Connie called Anthony back to the compound), that he was going to be killed?

Since he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I've always wondered about this. The only thing I have to compare it to in GFI is Tessio, who WAS supposed to be pretty sharp, and he understood immediately how the "change in plans" was going to affect him. But with Fredo, this is kind of open-ended.

I vote "yes," for two reasons. First, after Anthony leaves, Fredo says, almost with resignation, "OK, Al. Let's go." And he's praying just a little bit TOO loudly out there on the water.

On the other hand, we've seen him portrayed, in two movies, as a simple-minded oaf who wasn't even smart enough to understand that treacherous people were trying to get to his brother through him. So I've always wrestled with this question.

Comments?

I think he did know for the same reasons you gave.

Fredo didn't know. He was simply not strong or brave enough to have gone so stoically to his end, as Tessio had.

The way I've always seen it is that Fredo is simply disappointed that Anthony cannot go fishing with him. Had he any idea what was about to happen, he wouldn't have so cheerily promised Anthony he'd catch a fish using their little secret prayer.

I never took his prayer to be 'loud'. I know people usually whisper their prayers or even silently move their lips - but that is not the type of praying Fredo was involved in. It was a ritual he used to catch a fish.

Anyway - we had to hear him recite it just that way for dramatic effect. Especially the cutoff of that final line (for those who know it)..now and at the hour of our death.

Apple

Well I give you that the effect was definitely DRAMATIC. And if he didn't know, he was the ONLY one who didn't know. However many millions of people who saw the movie certainly knew.

Well, I didn't know...

I remember being utterly shocked - flabberghasted - the very first time I saw the film - that Michael really did have him killed. I guess I'm just as much of a dull blade as Fredo was!!

Of course, I was only 17 at the time.

Apple

PS - that's the one thing you lose when enjoying a movie over and over, year after year. That innocence or 'openness' of seeing it for the first time, not knowing what's going to happen.
And in the Michael sequences of GFII, you really DIDN'T know...because there was no novel to pre-tell the story.

by AppleOnYA Oh how true! We comment and conjecture on GF and GF2 often without the recollection of our first viewing. But the Fredo killing was one I remember. SONOFABITCH, he shot him! What a bastard that Michael is....his own brother! Something like that. I don't think Fredo had a clue. He was just disappointed that Anthony got called away.

It occurred to me that it could happen (emphasis on the COULD) because the whole "change in plans" scenario too closely mirrored Tessio in GFI. That's the only reason why it did, though.

Alot of what happened in GFII mirrored GF. Makes sense that the 'change in plans' scenario would be repeated years later, with another traitor. But Fredo is not Tessio and Fredo was not even around when Tessio was killed. Even if he were, Fredo just wasn't sharp enough to realize the same trap was being set. Remember, when he & Michael embraced so emotionally, Fredo thought all was forgiven and he was being welcomed back. Otherwise, he would've been far too frightened to remain at the lake.

I still say Fredo didn't know.

Apple

I don't think Fredo was thinking he'd get killed in the boat while fishing. I think we tend to forget that we've seen it so many times, and probably don't think about the initial reaction from the first viewing perspective.

As a viewer in the audience, at that time, I didn't know Fredo would be killed until the actual gunshots, because when Connie called Anthony in there was no indication even then that something was going to happen. Remember, think as someone who hasn't seen and analyzed this so many times.

True, Fredo wasn't the brightest bulb, but even he is not that stupid. Why would he'd continue with his fishing plans, knowing he was gonna get killed.

Like Mary Cas noted, I too was shocked when I first saw it. I remember thinking, "he actually had his own brother murdered", and that wasn't until right after the gunshots

Poor Fredo!!


TIS

I think he (Fredo)must have known -since the day their mother died- that his period of grace has expired at that point. He just resigns because there *is* no way to get out of that situation his ehm...simplicity has gotten him into...
Maybe nonsense, but imho that's it.

If Fredo had any idea that there was a 'grace period' which expired the day his mother died, he would not probably not even have appeared at the wake. He was not the type of person to have 'resigned' himself to the thought, 'Oh well, no way out of this, I screwed up, I'm toast anyway so I may as well just sit around and wait for the big one'.

If he had even the slightest inkling of what Michael had in mind he would have kept running as long as he could...the way he did that night in Cuba. Like the selfish, whining coward that he was. He may have been caught up with eventually, but he would not have simply walked into Michael's hands. Not if he knew what was gonna happen.

Fredo didn't know.

Apple

No. Fredo didn't know at all. And Apple is right on this one.

I'm in agreement with TIS on this issue. I know when I first saw it, I had no idea Fredo was going to be whacked.

Hi!

I think it's again a little bit more complicated than it seems.

Logically, Fredo knew that he was doomed. He was smart enough for that, after all. He knew what happened to Paulie, what happened to Carlo, what happened to Sal. He knew pretty well that there was no way for a traitor to survive as long as the Family hadn't lost its grip.

Now, he was Mike's brother, and quite emotional and weak at that. So, he desperately, absolutely desperately hoped that he would be spared if for this reason alone. To the point of absolutely believing in this and blocking the unavoidable completely out of his mind.

So, yes, he knew, and no, he didn't believe that he would be killed at his kid brother's behest. And I don't believe that Al told him anything either, just to make sure that there would be no unnecessary fuss.

As for his loud prayer, it's of course overdramatized and would probably scare all the fish a mile around the hell out of there. But then, sound propagates pretty well along water surface. Anyone who enjoyed fishing on a great quiet lake would assert that it's utterly astonishing to hear people talking some two-three hundred yards away loud and clear as if they were sitting next to you. So, he might still be praying (nearly) under his breath.

And no, I was not surprised that Fredo was killed when I watched this movie for the first time. Kay's abortion was much more treacherous and shocking. Exactly the last stroke from the loved one, in purely Shakespearean style.

Best regards.

Alexander

I'll just play devil's advocate here, and say that Fredo did know he was going to get shot. I see his hanging around Anthony as being a sort of guarantee of his safety. He also lacks the grit to hang around anyone else in the family!

When Anthony is called away, I see his reaction as being one of resigned disappointment. ("Ah, shit!") He knows he is isolated now, and is going to die.

When he says to Al, "Let's go Al," I see a man accepting his fate, and preparing for execution.

The final prayer is, of course, the last prayer of the condemned man. The way he bends over, and the way he says it, I think he knew all right!!


By the way, I see a parallel between this scene, and the deleted scene where Vito kills one of Don Ciccio's guards. Both executions take place in boats: but what a contrast between them!

I think we're over-complicating things, here.

New Year's Eve, Cuba. That's when Fredo thought he was gonna get whacked. So he does what anyone, stupid or smart, would do. He runs. Mike gets home and sends out the word to Fredo that everything is OK. Fredo believes him. Then, after the Senate hearings. Fredo is exiled and living elsewhere. After mama's death, there seems to be a reconcilliation between the brothers, and Fredo returns and lives at the Lake Tahoe Compound.

Why in heaven's name would he come back and live with his brother if he thought Mike was going to kill him? Fredo was stupid, but not that stupid. Clearly,he thought everything was OK between the two of them. If he thought Mike was out to kill him, he was certainly smart enough to head for the hills, just as he did in Cuba.

Fredo, I believe, had no idea he was about to die, either on the boat or any other time.

When Anthony is called away, Fredo is disappointed because his nephew cannot go fishing with him. He did not keep Anthony around as 'protection'; Fredo may have been stupid but he knew darn well that if his brother wanted him dead he would find a way to get it done. Fredo would never have stayed at the compound, let alone hang around Anthony, if he thought he was going to be killed. If you look at the earlier fishing scene, as well as the last one, Fredo is much too relaxed and contented, even when Anthony is called away by Connie. He is not 'resigned' to the fact that he is about to die, because he doesn't know he's about to die. He truly believes Michael has forgiven him. And Michael knows this.

Fredo didn't know.

Apple

Re: the fishing rod scene.

I don't see relaxation and a lack of suspicion at all, in Cazale's performance! I see desperate, suppressed fear, bordering on panic. Look at the way Fredo stammers and looks feeble.

I guess it's a great actor who can present multiple personalities to different watchers. (that's a conciliatory way of putting it!)

He also doesn't look convinced that Michael has "forgiven" him. I think he knew that Michael wasn't really forgiving him at all. Look at the histrionic way he clutches Michael's back - I see that as signifying his desperate wish that this was genuinely a reconciliation - but it is merely a desperate wish, not a belief.

I didn't mean that Fredo hung around Anthony for "protection" - only that he knew that as long as he hung around him, he was safe(ish). He was trying to hang on as long as he could.

Which is not to say that Anthony was a "hostage", at all! Fredo hung on to the family as long as he could; Anthony has become the only member who will really accept him, as a person.

The tragedy of Fredo's character is that he has always felt an outsider. He is a futile, ineffective sort of man, who will never amount to anything - yet he is also a Corleone, and desperately wants recognition.

When we see Fredo as a baby, we are reminded of Fredo's remark that his mother told him he was a gypsy. We know from this scene he is not a gypsy; but he does not. This emphasises how weak he is, he knows even less than the audience.
Don Vito weeps over his boy when he gets Pneumonia; but Fredo will not remember his father's grief. We understand from this scene Vito actually loved him; but Fredo never will. He doesn't remember his father, or his family, ever accepting him. All he remembers is "being stepped over".

When michael announces that he is joining the Marines, Fredo tries to congratulate him. Michael is an outsider - in a sense only Fredo will understand him. But before they can become close, Sonny grabs his hand and flings it aside. The Family itself prevents these two outsiders being close.

Incidentally Connie must have believed Michael and Fredo were reconciled. Despite Godfather III, I see Michael's killing of Fredo as alienating Connie - the last member of the family who wants to hang around him. I always saw her as not being able to forgive Michael afterwards. After all, look at her reaction when Carlo was killed, at the end of the first film.

That's what I see michael as thinking, when he is sitting in the garden alone. That absolutely no one from the Family is left. Connie will certainly never forgive him now. Tom Hagen is totally alienated; Kay is gone. Fredo is dead. All that is left is his precious power.

Fredo 'stammers and looks feeble' in just about every scene in which he appears in BOTH Godfather films.

Yes, I agree that John Cazale WAS a great actor but we have to take into account what is consistent for THIS character.

Speaking of the reconcilliation hug at mama's wake...I believe that Fredo's clutching of Michaels' back is pure emotion and sentiment, at the fact that he DOES believe his brother has reconciled with him. It's not a desparate wish, it's what he truly thinks is happening. Let's remember, it was Fredo who first asked to see Michael and Tom said no way. Because of Connie's intervention, Michael finally came to Fredo and in Fredos mind (mine too - the first time) that meant they were brothers again and there was nothing to fear.

Fredo didn't know.

Apple

I was going to post this topic today!! Glad I did a search and found this first haha

I convinced myself Fredo knew he was going to meet his doom in the boat on the lake. The story he told Anthony about saying the hail Marys to catch the fish was nice, a story a kid would like. When he was alone with Neri and still saying the hail Mary plus the way he was sat in the boat, his back to Neri head bowed, praying, all added up that he knew death was imminent.

Now I've read all these great postings I think I've changed my mind again...Fredo didn't know after all.

But, then again.......

FH

Too true!! I'm always sad when I think of how I will never be shocked at the death of Fredo, or how I will never again experience that intense range of emotions I had the first time I saw Michael preparing to kill Sollozzo.

I second you on the sollozzo shooting scene - took my breath away. On the subject on Fredo knowing, I kinda thought that he may have thought it was possible he was gonna be killed, but then I thought that, being quite cowardly, Fredo would never have got in the boat if he knew he could be killed. Mmmmm. I guess we'll never know for sure. A bit like Fredo in a way he he.
Ciao!

HE DIDN'T KNOW, Michael deluded the weak-minded Fredo into believing he was accepted back into the family and that Michael had forgiven him. Look how comfortable Fredo is on the Tahoe estate later, interacting with Anthony etc., not the attitude of a man knowing he is about to be killed.

Fredo "praying too loud" was a device that Coppola with his brillant directoral vision so as to make the scene more dramatic than Neri simply shooting Fredo.

Who's to say Al didn't regulary fish with Fredo and Anthony? That would be Neri's mind at work, assisting his Don into luring Fredo into a false of security...

Well, yes we will know for sure.

Fredo didn't know.

Best,
Apple

Fair point. I'm sure Fredo didn't know, but I didn't wanna seem to dismissive in my statement just incase. Ah well, poor Fredo, he's so weak..

If Fredo knew what was about to happen why would he stay in the boat?

3 reasons for staying in the boat-

1) he was ready to die for his crimes; in
which we see Fredo acting bold for the
first time on film; or:
2) he was not ready to die, but knew he had
little choice in the matter and decided
to die like a true sicilian; or:
3) he did not know and simply wanted to fish

Ok, which sounds more like the Fredo we all know?

You forgot...

4.) He wanted to recite/practice his 'Hail Mary' with Al Neri.

Interesting views but I still cannot see any indication that Fredo knew. As P. Lawrence said, why would he even consider staying in the same house as Michael (not to mention the same town) if he thought he'd get whacked. And I agree to with Apple that the Michael/Fredo hug at mama's funeral meant, to Fredo. that he was forgiven.

Plus, I don't think the Hail Mary thing was necessarily symbolic of anything to come. It seems beleiveable that in that era, that a Sicilian raised boy may have been taught by his papa to say a prayer when fishing.

TIS

Like TIS said, why would Fredo stick around if he even suspected he would get whacked? The embrace between the two was a sign of peace for Fredo, but in reality, it sealed his fate...

Fredo praying too loud may be dismissed as a "device", but the whole film is a "device". There's a difference between the presentation of the events in GF2 as "fact" (in which case logical arguments can be used) and the presentation of events as art, or symbolism.

In Oedipus Rex, I think Oedipus always "knows" the truth, because of the odd guilt in his statements throughout the play. This is not literal knowledge in the sense of fact, but symbolic knowledge - foreshadowing.

The hints that Fredo "knows" his fate is like this; it isn't knowledge in the logical sense, but only as a foreshadowing device.