One will never truly know, beacuse the only person that had a definate say on the matter is dead. R.I.P. my lil' bald headed tuna.

I agree that the Hail Mary was purely artistic. And I thought it had a good effect.

But think about it - we all remember how Fredo reacted when Vito was shot. He completely lost his ability to function, and he wasn't even the victim. If he actually suspected danger to himself, he would never have gotten into that boat. I sort of see Fredo as a child. I doubt if he would have taken the knowledge of a plot on his life with calmness and composure. No, he couldn't have known.

It pains me to say that Apple is dead on.

Fredo didn't have a clue. He really believed that Michael had forgiven him, and he was obviously put out by the fact that Anthony could not go. The key element in the "change of plans" thing in all three GF movies is that someone is suddenly moving out of danger unexpectedly.
Thus Fredo in GF II didn't know any more than Carlo knew he was about to be garotted in GF I.
Likewise in GF III I think Mike first realized that Altobello was a traitor when he conveniently "escused himself" from the meeting room seconds before the helicopter hit.

Fredo must have believed that he and Michael were truly reconciled for one reason: remember his reaction to Michael when Michael first revealed to Fredo that "I know it was you. You broke my heart. You broke my heart." Fredo took off light lightning. Even despite the fact that Fredo may not have been able to get back in the U.S. because of the uprising in Cuba, he chose to run away from Michael even as Michael called to him saying "You're still my brother." and "There's no way else out of here." Fredo was PETRIFIED of Michael at that moment. He was afraid for his own life.

Given his reaction previously to the fear that his brother may have wanted revenge on him, there is no doubt in my mind that Fredo was in complete ignorance of what was to happen to him. Not only that, but as easy as it was for Michael to kill his own blood, it was anathema for Vito--and most other Italian Dons of Vito's time. You might beat a member of your family nearly to death, but you'd never kill him/her. Of course, I am referring to close family: brothers, sisters, parents, etc. I think the murdering of one's own close family was NOT usual, but, in fact, highly unusual and very disgusting to most Italians--even the mob.

Also, how do we know for sure that Connie knew that Michael had Fredo killed? I doubt very much that she would have tolerated it had she really known that Michael could have done such a thing. Is there anything in GFIII which indicates CLEARLY and without question that Connie knew Michael had Fredo killed? If there is, then that is just one more reason why GFIII is so far off from GFI and GFII.

~~ Lollie

Hi Guys.
I think Fredo knew in a way that his brother was after his blood, maybe he didn't expect it to be on that day or so soon after his mothers death. But I think Fredo (a family member) was clever enough to understand that people who betray the family is going to be dealt with.

Just my 2cnts

Here...lemme kiss the booboo

Couldn't have said it better myself.



Fredo didn't know.

AppleOnYa

Here...lemme kiss the booboo [IMG]AppleOnYa [/QB][/QUOTE]


Awww dats all better now.

Damn, I missed another chance to argue w/ Apple
I say he did know, for these reasons
-He was hauled back from NY. I dont think he's leaving the compound. Even a 10 year old is goin to know somethings up
-Fredo might be stupid, but hes been around this business all his life.He's not that stupid
-Listen to the resignation in his voice when he says "OK Al, lets go"

There are many more reasons, but they have left me at the moment. If Apple responds, no doubt I'll remember them by then

He's got nowhere else to go. He was found & 'hauled back' on his brother's orders and was told 'not to be scared and that Michael knew he was tricked by Roth. He was definitely scared at first...but by the end, thought he had been forgiven. Plenty of 10yr olds alot sharper than Fredo.

He may have been around this business all his life...but he'd never seen anyone betray thier own brother (groundbreaker that he was), so there was really nothing to compare his situation to. If he was stupid enough to be duped by Roth/Ola...he was stupid enough to believe that the embrace from Michael meant he was forgiven and safe (and so was most of the audience).

He's disappointed that he can't take his nephew fishing with him.

Waiting for the 'other' reasons.



Apple

Wait Everyone is saying he didn't know because he stayed...or something to that nature among other things, but I argue this point mostly...He knew at the second anthony was taken from the boat.
As to people saying that he would have left the compound, where exactly would he have gone? to another family? To whoever was running the Corleone's in NY? by the time of Fredo's demise the Corleone Family had taken Car of all of it's business. Roth Was Dead, and no family Would offer Fredo protection for fear of the Corleone's coming down on them. I admit Fredo was slow, but not as slow as a child. He went AWOL after Cuba, but he knew as well as anyone that in the End he'd have to go back to Michael. Maybe he thought Going back would make things easier on him, and I think he hoped he wouldn't be killed for his crime, but deep down inside he knew his days were numbered, in that life, if you are in it you know what consequences befall what actions.

He didn't have the slightest clue as to what was about to happen. It was deliberately planned that way by Michael.

In some ways, he was even slower than a child. Depends on the child.

If you mean he knew he'd die SOMEDAY, yes I guess we can give him credit for THAT. But he didn't know what fate would befall him on that lake.

The consequences that befell his actions was being shut out of the family by his brother. When Michael hugged him at their mother's wake, he was led to believe he'd had his punishment and all was now forgiven.

He didn't know.

Apple

Corfrect-o-mundo Apple. Fredo was too dumb to realize that Michael COULD come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Green like THAT. Also not only was he dumb enough to believe Johnny Ola's proposition that there would be something in it for him, on his own, if he "helped" with the negotiations, he also admitted to being kept in the dark about what they were up to.

Hey, dontomasso...let's give poor Fredo credit where credit is due.

He did figure out how to do coctail waitresses two at a time.

He also knew how to catch a fish.

Those two stellar achievements aside....he was probably dumber than the cat on Vito's lap.

And....he didn't know.

Apple

Well, Apple I don't know for sure about catching a fish because we never actually got to see it. Just cause he told Anthony this was the way to do it doesnt mean he was telling the truth. Also if you look at the timing of the gunshot that killed him, he would have been at the part of the prayer that says "now and at the hour of our death, Amen." I always thought FFC did this on purpose, but now I am wondering if it is possible that Fredo was so dumb he didnt remember the second half of the prayer.

You also forgot to give him credit for remembering how to get to the nightclub where Superman performed in Havana.

Excellent point...in fact maybe that's why Neri finally shot him!! ('Hour of our death amen, you idiot, HOUR OF OUR DEATH AMEN !!!

True, but then he was dumb enough to spill the beans in front of his brother thereby digging his own grave when Michael might not ever have known for sure that he was the TRAITOR.

Apple

Wow, I was just thinking. Fredos dumb how did he ever last that long in the business? hahaha

He didn't.

He couldn't even protect his father or even get a shot at the assasins. He couldn't even hold on to a gun. That's why he was packed off to Vegas to 'rest' and learn the casino business. That's why they took care of him, but gave him nothing more important to do than planning parties, picking up people at airports and bringing 2 million to his brother in Havana.

And that's why he got frustrated and turned TRAITOR. Because he was too dumb to realize that he was to dumb to play an active role in the family.

He didn't last in the business, and he didn't even last in the family.

He was DUMB, and he DIDN'T KNOW !!



Apple

How could Fredo know so much about Havana to take the guests for a trip around the place? Did we get any hint in previous scenes...

Yes, in a previous scene when Fredo brings the suitcase of money into the hotel room, he asks Mike what is going on, and Mike says the family is making an investment in Havana, to which Fredo replies, "Great. Havana's my kind of town."

Apple, how many dumb people do you know who know they are dumb? And Fredo's not dumb,
he's smart, he's smart! Not dumb like everyone says, he's smart and he wants respect, but he was passed over! And thats not the way HE wanted it....Fredo go pick someone up at the airport, Fredo go run some mickey mouse nightclub somewhere....there was something in it fir him! For Him on his own. Mikey was his kid brother and he takes care of him? Did you ever think about that? Hah?

Well Havana is a town with alot of fun places to go and Fredo spending sum 4 years in vages and but that he could have ment that since it was a fun place he would like it.

No he had been there before...remember he had seen the Superman show (of course he saw it with Johnny Ola, which Mike wasnt supposed to know)

I'm really to tired tonight to organize my thought too well, but I'll give it a shot...
Fredo was found in NY and brought back to the compound. He obviously was not allowed anywhere near the edge (if Kay wasnt, Fredo sure as hell wasnt either) even though Mike assured him that nothing would happen to him. Now Freddie's life consists of hanging out with his nephew. He has absolutly nothing else to live for. Anthony gets pulls out of the boat that fateful moment. Mike's bodyguard is the only one with him. I dont care how important freddie was, a bodyguard of Neri's postiton does not usually take the boss's brother fishing alone. Fredo, dumb as he is, knows something is up.
Fredo did know and "went with the flow" persay because, at that moment, what could he have done? Run screaming off the boat? Or prehaps he could have said, "ya know Al, I dont feel like going either" (which, again is asking a lot for a dim guy like him)and stepped back onto the dock.For what? As I have already said, he has aboslutely nothing to live for, and with all that time couped up on the compound, he's obivopusly hads some time to think about it, even if he did truely believe he was forgiven (which he did, until Tony was pulled from the boat)

Not so sure, Sonny. The way Fredo speaks to Al is as if Al is working for him. He sort of orders him..."All right Al, lets go." Not only did he not have a clue, he actually thought Al was doing his job by taking him fishing.

Unlike Kay who was completely shut out of Michael's life and was lucky to be even permitted to visit with her kids...Fredo was allowed to live on the compound under the premise that he had been forgiven by his brother.


I never really thought of Al Neri as simply a 'bodyguard'. That aside...he had already been seen playing with Anthony at a much younger age in The Godfather who's to say that they hadn't already established a playful relationship since Kay had earlier complained to Mike that all Anthony's friends were 'buttonmen'.

Why not? Even Neri would get a day off every now & then and who's to say that he, Fredo and Anthony hadn't gone fishing several times before this. Just because Anthony is called off...that is no reason for the now relaxed, contented Fredo not to continue with the fishing trip, never realizing that he's about to have a headfull of led.

No, he doesn't.

Yes, had he any idea he probably WOULD have claimed he didn't feel like fishing, bolted from the boat and probably even tried to run, just out of blind panic. The whole point of the embrace allowing him to hang out with Anthony was to lull Fredo into a sense of security so that he would never know about the fate that awaited him. Michael didn't want him to know. Sad a task as it was...Michael really planned it beautifully.

At this point, after what he did (TRAITOR)...Fredo is grateful to not only be alive, but also taken back under Michael's wing. I'd say that before that embrace at their mother's wake - THAT was when Fredo had nothing to live for, which is why he had so pitifully asked to see Mike. He was a lost man until Michael came to him after talking w/ Connie.


And even after Anthony was taken from the boat. He had no clue whatsoever.

To be absolutely fair (even though I knew the answer)...I watched this scene very closely last night (on Spike TV), just to see if there was even an inkling realization to Fredo that he was about to die and accepted it. There was not. He was disappointed that his nephew had to go to Reno and even promised Anthony he'd take him fishing 'tomorrow' (a line which I had never really noticed before). If he had any idea what was about to happen, he would not have had the presence of mind to even think of saying that to Anthony, knowing it wouldn't happen.

Fredo said 'Let's go Al...' thinking he was about to catch some fish. He didn't know.

Now Don Sonny Corleone...I hope you're not too tired to go and organize your thoughts again.

Give it a shot, I'm looking forward to it.

Apple

Gee whiz, Apple, just think how erudite you will be when you get that DVD player.

Dontomasso, where have you BEEN ????

We've owned a DVD player since Santa brought one last Christmas!

And...thank goodness my daughter asked him for one, cause otherwise I probably still wouldn't have sprung for it!!

Ever the cheapskate....
AppleOnYa

Sorry Apple thought you didnt have one!! Disregard my other poste somewhere about hitching up your horse and buggy to got to town to get one.
As for the book, when you get it (yeah, it is in paperback) be sure you get the one that says THE GODFATHER -- there is a knock off one out there with the word "Returns."

I've actually picked up the novel (yes, in paperback, even the 30th anniversary edition) many times in bookstores and even read a few pages before putting it back on the shelf. Somehow, I always randomly open it up to pretty good parts, like the murders of both Luca and Santino...and my personal favorite (so far)...when Clemenza is forced to ponder on how to do away with Paulie. I must admit it does give the situation a depth that was virtually impossible to put across in the movie.

Apple