THIS TOPIC WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS

THIS TOPIC WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS

For anyone that has started reading the book and would like to discuss it here under this topic, PLEASE start EACH of your posts, UNDERLINED and in BOLD with the Chapter Number and the word SPOILERS at the very top of EACH Post.

Example : CHAPTER ONE DISCUSSION SPOILERS

This way if someone is not up to a part of the book that you are up to, they will be forwarned that what they are about to read is NOT a part of the book that they are up to yet.

You may be 5 chapters into the book and want to discuss and post about something in chapter 5, but I may only be up to chapter 3 and therefore wouldn't want to read what you are discussing about chapter 5. So that is why I suggest that EACH post starts out, at the very top, with the chapter number underlined and in bold.


Don Cardi

Did you get your book DC? There was trouble with my order so I won't get mine till sometime next week

CHAPTER ONE & CHAPTER TWO SPOILERS


Well, it's very obvious that Winegardner took the Carlos Marcello and the Kennedy brothers stories and just changed their names. Carlos Tramonti ( Carlos Marcello). The Shea Brothers
(The Kennedy Brothers).

I found that so far, through a preface and two chapters, this book is already more interesting than The Godfather Returns.

I find it more interesting that Winegardner has taken real life mob history, real life political history and incorporated it into a story involving The Corleones.

There are several things said by Winegardner about some of the original GF characters that tells me that he's surfed our GF Trilogy thread and 'borrowed' some of the things that we've pointed out or specualted about the GF characters.

It also looks to me as though the story of Michael, helping to get James Shea ( John Kennedy) elected President, is based on the real life story of Sam Giancana intervening on behalf of Frank Sinatra, to pull the union votes to Kennedy.

This book may actually be better than the last one in the sense that a lot of what has taken place so far is based on real life happenings between the mob, the government and the connection between the CIA and the Mob in attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Two chapters. So far so good.



Don Cardi

Like what?

CHAPTER ONE & CHAPTER TWO SPOILERS




It wasn't really that much stuff Mig. A line or two here and there in The Prologue. so I don't want to make it appear as though he did this alot. It's really no big deal and I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

It's hard to explain in words Mig. You have to read it to understand what I mean. Some of the lines he uses about Michael and Tom's relationship, about Michael breaking Tom's balls about loyalty, are very very similar to things that we've discussed on the boards many times. Points that I remember Turnbull bringing up about why Michael treated Tom like shit at times.

I just get the feeling that he's read our discussions about things like this because what he writes resonates views that only a gangsterbb fanatic would talk about.

Besides, why in the world are you reading these posts when you haven't even started reading the book? You're going to ruin it for yourself.


Don Cardi

I guess I'm going to have to give in and read it.

What's wrong with a sneak peak?

I got my book in today. Can't wait to start discussing it.

Now get crackin!



Don Cardi

Tom Hagen is hands down my favorite character from both the novel and the saga, so when I heard that the new book was going to give him a lot of time in the limelight I was very happy (inspite of the terrible reception Returns recieved. I've yet to read that myself).

I won't be able to get my hands on Revenge for a minute yet so I was wondering if anyone could field any spoilers regarding the character. Pretty please? Anyone? I wouldn't forget the favor

SPIOLERS UP TO CHAPTER 9


Well early in the book Winegardner dedicates a whole chapter to Hagen and his wife. But you'll have to read it to find out


This book returns to the Nick Gerace character, and the chapter given to Gerace is an interesting one, making the Gerace character much more interesting than in the last book.

He also spends a chapter on Johnny Fontane which, to my surprise, was not as boring as I thought it was going to be. I'll put it this way, if ever anyone had any doubt that the Johnny Fontane character was based on Frank Sinatra, after reading this chapter all doubts will be erased. Winegardner lightly touches on Fontanes life in the sixties which mirrors many of the things that Sinatra went through up until those years of his life.

I also enjoyed the chapter (8 I believe) which introduces a Corleone caporegime named Eddie Paradise (pronounced Paradee-see). An interesting character who could be right out of the streets of any tough neighborhood that is run by gansgters. He runs the Redhook section of Brooklyn along with his right hand man Momo The Roach. Winegardner is cute in that he makes several little inuendos in this chapter covering Eddie Paradise, which mirror some of the real life doings of The Gallo clan who used to run Redhook in real life. While we all know that The Rosatto Brothers from GFII were based on the real life Gallo brothers, Winegardner makes a reference about this Eddie character having a cage from a Zoo in the basement of his club and his wanting to put a pet Lion in that cage. In real life the Gallo brothers had a pet lion in the basement of their club in Redhook.

So far, it looks as though Winegardner did his homework as far as real life mobsters and polticians go and has creatively applied some of those real life happenings to his charaters in the book.

I have to say that I am enjoying this book much more than I expected. And definitely much more than The Godfather Returns. Not a literary genius by any means, but enjoyable.

EDIT : Did I mention about Johnny Fontane being the Grand Marshall of the Columbus Day Parade, accompanied by his oldest daughter? And how Winegardner keeps referencing about her new Black knee high Boots? Ring a bell anyone? ( "These boots are made for walking," recorded in real life by none other than the chairman of the board's daughter--Nancy Sinatra)


Don Cardi

Ok I'm crackin

Don Cardi you are a terrible tease

SPOILERS UP TO CHAPTER 14, End of BOOK I



So both Sonny's daughter and aunt Connie have the hots for Johnny Fontaine. The weakest chapter in the book so far. One that I could have done without. But I guess that a writer needs to insert dull and sensless chapters like this one in order to fill up his book.

A commission meeting held in Brooklyn, run by Michael Corleone. Now this is what I want to read about, not Connie's hots for Johnny Fontaine.

Don Altobello has just become a member of the commission and is the Don of the Tattaglia family. The Cuneos have become a close ally to the Corleones, and they were the ones responsible for finding and taking out Fabrizzio on Michael's behalf, years before. (obviously why I posted the question that I did over in the GF Novel thread).

The book continues to parallel real life mob and political happenings. There is reference made to a farm in upstate New York where a raid had taken place years earlier, netting the heads of many mafia families from around the country. An obvious referal to the real life infamous Appalachian meeting.

There is also a proposal made at that commission meeting to kill the President of the United States in order to put a stop to his younger brother's continued efforts, as attorney general, to crackdown on the mob. That proposal comes from the Don of New Orleans.

These two brothers, the President and the Attorney General, have one weekness though, and Micheal Corleone knows exactly what that weekness is, due to their hanging out with Johnny Fontaine; infidelity with woman.

Sound like any historical pair of political brothers that we know of who were known to have hung around with a famous italian singer?

Hopefully things will get a bit more exciting in Book II and start to take place after Winegardner spending 14 chapters developing the plot.

Not a bad read so far, but not as action packed as I thought it was going to be.





Don Cardi

I'm not even done with chapter 2 yet. I still have the mind set that it is going to suck like Returns did so I am having trouble reading it.

SPOILERS **** SPOILERS **** SPOILERS ****



OK people, back after about a year off (??) but I just happened to be doing some very early shopping at the local bigbox, and picked up a copy of "Revenge" at a big discount.

So I tore through it yesterday, speed-skimming it, and I must say I have very, very mixed feelings so far.

First, the book seemed overly fixed on resolving the Nick Gerace storylne from "Returns." Frankly as much as anything it seemed more like a book about Nick Gerace than the Corleones.

That ticked me off, because while overall I liked "Returns" OK -- didn't love it, but didn't vehemently hate it as much as many here or other reviewers seemed to -- to me, the main challenge to any writer basing a new work on the Corleone Saga HAS to be how to advance and integrate the unresolved storylines of the characters already established in the canonical works, to come up with plausible plotlines which would fit in the existing continuity.

By far, the biggest unresolved storyline from "The Godfather, Part II" (and, by omission, the failure of "Part III") was the issue of Tom Hagen's loyalty to Michael Corleone. Toward the end of Part II, that loyalty was starting to fray a bit around the edges. It was clearly being foreshadowed by Puzo and FFC toward the end of Part II that Hagen's loyalty might not be as unconditional as it had appeared to be, and both Michael and Tom had reasons to question how loyal he would ultimately be.

So to me, the demise of Hagen in "Revenge" was a HUGE disappointment -- a fundamental core character in the Puzo/FFC continuity was written out simply as a plot device to advance the adventures of Nick Gerace (who frankly I did not personally give a $#$# about, since he was not an established character in the canon). Hagen's death, in mid-1964, also comes too soon to match up with the continuity established in "Part III" -- Hagen is dead in Part III, but the implication I always got from watching the movie is that his death had been somewhat recent, not last week, but not 16 years ago as the "Revenge" storyline now places it.

There were a few other things, I can't recount in detail, that "Revenge" seemed to just totally ignore "Part III" as canon, perhaps just pretending that it hadn't happened.

The storylines of the Corleone children were also jumbled up. We didn't really see what happened to Sonny's older sons (who were toddlers in Part I, visited Vito's bedside, etc etc.) It has been presumed they moved away with Sandra, and did not pursue life in "the family," but there's still a question if Sonny's legitimate sons would want to get involved with the family as his illegitimate son Vincent does in Part III.

I will have to read it over and let it soak in. Some parts were OK, but again I felt it dwelled way too much on what happened with Nick Gerace and not enough on the Corleone Family.

The NY Times Book Review panned this book.

November 19, 2006
The Consigliere
By MICHAEL AGGER

THE GODFATHER’S REVENGE
By Mark Winegardner.

Say what you will about the Mafia, it’s an organization that knows how to elegantly dispose of a corpse. Mark Winegardner, not a Sicilian but an English professor, has written two sequels to Mario Puzo’s “Godfather.” The first was a jumble of Cuba scenes, betrayal and Michael Corleone’s eternal desire to become a legitimate businessman. It’s memorable mostly for angering readers with its “gay Fredo” revelation (an entirely plausible deduction from the movies). Now, with “The Godfather’s Revenge,” a once-amusing idea is starting to assume a necrophiliac air. For how many more pages can Michael, Kay, Tom and Johnny Fontane keep this stuff up? And don’t they ever get to leave the ’60s behind?

Winegardner sets his new novel determinedly in that era, when the Kennedys, the Mafia and Frank Sinatra burned brightly in the American imagination — a safe and unsatisfying decision. In the wake of “The Sopranos” and “The Wire,” the book feels like a visit to a Mafia version of Colonial Williamsburg: watch the women make manicotti, while the men plot and sulk in the dark.

Recreating Puzo’s embroidered Mafia universe can be entertaining, and Winegardner has rich (in every sense of the word) material to work with. Name another movie that half the world can quote ... besides “Star Wars” and “Casablanca” and “The Wizard of Oz.” Despite this inherited advantage, Winegardner writes like a low-level soldier who never fails to mention his connections to the more powerful. “The Godfather’s Revenge” cruises through a few scenes of double-dealing and then invariably drops some thundering reference to scenes mostly remembered from the Francis Ford Coppola movies. When Johnny Fontane and Francesca Corleone stroll in the moonlight, for instance, they end up flirting on top of the grave of Khartoum, the racehorse whose head showed up in “The Godfather.” This made me want to put down the book and go watch the original scene on YouTube.

“The Godfather’s Revenge” takes an extended journey into the mind of Tom Hagen, the Corleone consigliere, and continues the original story of Nick Geraci, a traitorous Corleone underboss determined to push aside Michael and take his job. Nick is somewhat unbelievable. He’s a wiseguy in search of a Renaissance Weekend — give this man a pay phone and he will orchestrate a few hits and then go home and work on his memoir while struggling with his Parkinson’s and keeping trim as a boxer and hiding from his mortal enemies. Tom merely gets into trouble with his wife after his mistress turns up dead. The novel also features cameos from the athletic, philandering Shea brothers, who are Winegardner’s stand-ins for Jack and Bobby.

The stories of these tradition-bound men are told with economy and a pulpy flair. There’s just one problem: these men are not Michael, who makes only shadowy and inconclusive appearances in the book. That’s an astounding choice. Why drive a Fiat when you have a Ferrari in the garage? Michael is a character who moves between good and evil, who killed his own brother, who longs for legitimacy and power. He’s a successful Hamlet, one who can dress well and act when pushed.

The great attraction of Puzo’s and Coppola’s “Godfather” was the romantic notion that a criminal code of honor, based on family, could persist in the modern era. When Winegardner delves into how all the world is like a Mafia, his book feels right, as in the scene with Michael envying the set-up of Robert Moses, who collects kickbacks from the public works he oversees, yet is hailed as a civic hero. Too often, though, the book just wants to rub shoulders with every historical moment it can, including the ultimate: the Kennedy assassination. Sure, the Corleones can be a hidden hand in history, but their power was always balanced by and rooted in a ritualistic family life. This is where Winegardner fails to innovate, and his confection falls flat. After all, a man who doesn’t spend time with his family can never be a real man.

Just idly wondering here: I wonder if Winegarden was under some kind of contractual restriction from Paramount, or FFC, or the Puzo estate, or whomever actually controls copyright on the character, as to how much he could involve Michael Corleone in the plotline.

Both books ("Returns" and "Revenge") dwell conspicuously on subplots involving secondary characters (Fredo in "Returns," Tom Hagen in "Revenge,") and BOTH deal quite extensively with the new character, Nick Gerace, created by Winegarten strictly for the books -- while leaving Michael Corleone almost a peripheral character in the storyline in both books.

That statement is right on the money. Historical moments and parallels work well at the appropriate times, but it's now at a point of overkill. Not to mention that I am halfway through the book and so far, not even a mob hit, halfway through the book and no action whatsoever.

What started out as a pretty good foundation for a decent story has now become somewhat boring.

It's now begining to look as though Winegardner has once again dropped the ball.



Don Cardi

You had doubts that he wouldn't??

I think your brain has gone soft from all that comedy you play.

I thought that I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Figured that after reading our reviews of his first book, here on the boards, he would at least try to get it right the second time. In all fairness I have to finish the book before becoming a critic.




Don Cardi

You're probably right. I should START the book before I criticize him.

This is worse than Michael getting wood in the movie theater.

I'm on a roll now I'm up to ch.3

Now the book is getting interesting again. But it still lacks the real in your face mob stuff.



Don Cardi

From the reviews that I have read {since I have not started "Revenge" yet} the book is low on action, but it picks up at the end {in terms of mob hits}.

I wouldn't say that Hagen and Fredo are secondary characters, those are more like Rocco and Neri.

SPOILERS ** SPOILERS UP To CHAPTER 18

It's becoming very difficult to finish this book. One chapter seems to pull you in, and then the next two suck.

I mean this guy spends half the chapter on a meeting between a lawyer and Michael. While it pertains to the story, he drags out a conversation between them, most of it meaningless. He spends almost 20 pages with this Sid Klien character, where he maybe only needed to spend about 5.

Early in the book Winegardner develops what looked to be an interesting storyline interwoven with some interesting characters. But almost 19 chapters later those characters have not developed into anything important in regards to the storyline.

Case in point, Carlo Tramonti. Very good writing about this character in the begining of the book. Outside of the commission meeting, halfway through the book, never talked about again. Eddie Paradise was another character talked about at the begining of the book. A character that looked as though he had the potential to develop into an intersting character in a mafia book. Winegardner, so far, fails to accomplish that.

As I was about to begin reading chapter 18, until I saw that it starts out with

"Francesca Corleone Van Arsdale - shrouded with dread, as she was all the time now..."

Who gives a fock about Francesca Corleone and her dread? This is supposed to be a book about one of the greatest fictional mob families in literary and cinematic history! A mafia book! Michael is almost non existant in this book! And when Michael does appear in a chapter, Winegardner really fails to capture the personality of Michael as we know him through Puzo. It's as though Winegardner wants to create his own characters, which is fine in itself, but has used the Corleone character name to advance his own, stupid, one dimensional characters. He could have surrounded his boring characters with Joe Shmo, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

You know how when reading a good book, you can't wait to find out what happens next but at the same time don't really want the book to end because it is so good?

Well with Godfather's Revenge, you are afraid to find out what junk is going to happen next, and at the same time you just cannot wait for the book to end because it's so bad.

I hope that Winegardner reads this thread because if he is, I want hom to know that he sucks with these Godfather books.

How the hell Puzo and his estate allowed this guy to destroy such great characters as the Corleone characters is beyond me.

Winegardner's books make Godfather III look like it should have won the Academy Award for best picture of the year.

Do I have to finish this book? It's becoming a chore.

Winegardner, you come out with another book, I will buy it, but I won't read it. I'll use it as toilet paper instead .



Seems to me that Winegardner has duped us again.



Don Cardi

But DC, how do you really feel?

PS, thanks for saving me $17 and a few hours of my life.

I really wish Plaw would have finished his GF novel. His novel was 100x's better. The few chapters he wrote was so much more interesting than this garbage and I'm only in ch.4.

Winegardner please do us a big favor and write something you know about.

Is there a link to this story? You've sparked my interest!

Here you go :


http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...=true#Post30252



Don Cardi

SPOILERS *** UP TO CHAPTER 21 - BOOK 4 *** SPOILERS


Let me tell you, it's been a struggle to get through what has really turned into a very boring story.

For instance Winegardner spends almost half a chapter describing Jack Woltz's newly renovated house. Now I understand the underlying message that Winegardner is trying to get across with that description in regards to what once happened to Woltz (horses head and breach of security), but there was absolutely no need to spend a half a chapter on that description when it could have been done in about a half a page.

And this Francesca Corleone screwing Johnny Fontaine sub story is just ridiculous, so far meaningless, and a waste of time. There was so much that Winegardner could have done with the Francesca character.

Also a lot of menaingless diolague between Connie and Francesca.

Michael basically is just a guest star in this book.

Mr. Winegardner, I will never understand how Puzo and his family picked you to carry on the Godfather tradition. You have absolutely no imagination whatsoever. There are times I wonder if you really ever read the Godfather, or even watched the movies.

Sad. What could have been a great continuing saga has been turned into junk.



Don Cardi

Preach on brother
As much as I love to read I am having trouble reading this pig slop. I've had this book since it came out and I am only on pg.56 I can see it now this book will take 6 months to read just like Returns did. That is sad also.

Have you ever considered a speed reading course?



I'll do you one better. I've looked in on the inside front cover only. You've got 56 pages on me!

I am glad I didnt buy it. Plaw's sequels were better.

I'm new here, so I'll start off with a very short observation.
Why does Winegardner keep using the term "whack" , when I don't recall anybody, let alone a "civilian" reporter, using that term in the 60's ? Frankly, before the surveillance tapes of the 80's, I defy you to find that term used anywhere outside of "the life". Just a pet peeve of mine. As far as the book itself, it's actually painful to read. I only endured it out blind loyalty to the original characters.

I guess we're neck-in-neck!

Hey Geoffy,

Did you ever finish GF Returns?

Err uhh...

Workin' on it! I take it to the laundromat with me... trouble is, I don't go often enough! lol

for those who have read both novels, or have read enough of both...tell me which one is the better novel? and second, should i even bother buying either of them? i held of on gf returns because of its bad reviews...but i read the first chapter once when i was in a bookstore and found it to be a bit interesting.

Quality-wise, they're about the same.

You can probably pick up "Returns" in the discount stacks for a few bucks, so it might be worth it.

"Revenge" assumes you know what happened in "Returns," so if you want to read either, read "Returns" first.

If you are really a hardcore Godfather freak, both books will piss you off because the canonical characters, mainly Michael Corleone, are such minor players in the plot, while page after page and chapter after chapter are spent on concocted characters like Nick Gerace, who we really don't care much about.

question - how come author said sonny was 37 years old when he died...i thought he was 32 1916 - 1948

Sonny was born in 1910 (according to the novel).

Winegardner didn't even get important dates right?

He wouldn't know his ass from a hole in the ground

In all fairness to Winegardner, he took ALL his trivial info from Puzo's book (and not the movies).

SC,
Have you got past the inside front cover yet?

As he should have. After all the books are continuations, well are supposed to be continuations, based on the original novel.

He still sucks as a writer. Boring shit. So much potential thrown down the drain.

Geoff, I want his e-mail address. I want to ask him some questions. The one question that I really want to ask him is "What the F**K were you thinking when you wrote these books?"

This one should have been titled : WINEGARDNER'S REVENGE


Don Cardi

DC,

Ask him why is so much of the books about Nick Geraci?

I think that Winegardner has an axe to grind with Michael.
He's very quick to point out what he perceives as Michael's shortcomings as a Don, while singing Geraci's praises.
He knows that he couldn't eliminate the Corleones completely so he gave them a backseat to the Geraci character.

you can contact him on his website, his email is there, i already did contact him

and as for sonny's age i was going by the timeline and my book

THE CORLEONE TIMELINE Last updated - 27 Nov 04

*1911 - Las Vegas officially becomes a city
1914 - Vito & Carmella get married
1916 - Santino (Sonny) & Tom Hagen born
1917 - Vito's Little Italy sequence begins (De Niro)
*1917 - Sicilian (Mafia) Don Morello murdered by Neapolitan (Camorra) Don Morano
*1918-1922 - Merger of Mafia and Camorra. Giuseppe Masseria is boss.
*1919 - Prohibition begins
1919 - Vito (27) kills Fanucci; Fredo born, gets pneumonia

What do I tell him? "Winegardner, you suck as a writer?"

Anyways I am sure that he reads these boards. There are even hints in his writing about some of the GF character traits that I would swear he picked up from reading these boards.

Then there are times when he portrays certain GF characters in certain ways that I find hard to believe. Especially some of the things that he has Michael say or do.

Truthfully, do you really think that Johnny Fonatane would have sex with Santino Corleone's daughter, the neice of the most powerful mobster in America? And even that aside, I find it very hard to believe that Johhny Fontane would disrespect his Godfather's memory by doing something like that.

I do have to admit though, I've grown to like his Nick Gerace character.



Don Cardi

Well, I don't think Winegardner sucks as a writer, in fact I don't hate either book as much as a lot of people here apparently do, and yes Nick Gerace does come to command your attention to some extent, but I do think that both books ultimately fail because they neglect the major characters in the saga.

Plus, although Tom Hagen is a fairly major character in "Revenge," the story completely misses the boat in exploring potential conflicts or rifts in the loyalty between Hagen and Michael Corleone -- which was quite clearly the primary theme being set up for Part III by subtle plot points written into the later scenes of Part II.

Had Puzo and FFC been able, or willing, to make GF III in the late 1970s or early 1980s, as originally intended, OR had they been able to re-sign Duvall for the cast when they finally DID make it, the growing tension and possible conflict between Hagen and Michael Corleone would almost certainly have been one of the central plotlines.

In fact, in my opinion, most of the character of Don Altobello (longtime trusted family friend of the Corleones, almost a part of the family himself, former close confidante of Vito, with many other contacts in the world of organized crime, who ends up shockingly betraying Michael) was probably adapted off of ideas they were going to use with Tom Hagen, had Duvall been signed for the film.

I'm a bit new here so I'm not sure if you guys are aware that the original script for GF 3, from May of 89, is viewable online.
If you check it out you'll see that Tom was supposed to have a tremendous part.
In this early draft it seems to me that Puzo/FFC had Hagen loyal to Michael to the very end.
Anyway, you can see it at joblo.com/movie scripts
Just click on The Godfather 3 link.

JoBlo comes up, but doesn't show scripts and says that PAGE IS MISSING.




Don Cardi

Went and read it; very interesting.

As I suspected, the Vincent/Mary romance was a much smaller part of the storyline.

Enzo, could you please post a link? I'd love to read it.



Don Cardi

Here ya go; it's a very long .pdf file, so it may take a while to load.

GF III script - 1989

The only link to GF3 in their scripts section sends you to JG's GF3
transcript.

Thanks.

I've read through half of it... I wish they would've stuck to this script (and would've paid Duvall the money he was seeking).

A few "surprises" from this version.

- Willie Cicci is in it. He hates Vincent; Cicci gets killed in a takeoff of Paul Castellano's murder.

- Rocco Lampone is in it. (He has a small part through what I've read).

- Tom Hagen discovers that Don Altobello is behind a scheme to counterfeit the Church's securities and gets shot (he survives) because of that discovery.

- The Russo Bros. (backed by Altobello) get killed on 46th Street (a reference to Spark's Steakhouse where Paul Castellano was gunned down) at a restaurant named Joe & Mary's (in real life where Carmine Galante was killed).

Anyway, here's a link (below) to that script:

GODFATHER III SCRIPT - FIRST DRAFT

Joe Spinell was to reprise his role as Willie Cicci but died in 1989. That's apparently when Zasa was written in.
Puzo/FFC decided that Rocco couldn't have survived his wounds and wrote him out.
The most intriguing possibility was Hagen. Opening the movie in Vegas for his birthday instead of Michael being honored by the church in NY.
Oh, what could have been.....

You can see how various scenes originally written for completely different purposes eventually did make it into the movie as actually released: the horseback shooting scene where Vincent kills Zasa was originally written as Tom Hagen being wounded, not killed, in a hit attempt.

Obviously Zasa was written in almost wholesale to replace the part originally intended for Cicci. (The names, of course, being phonetically almost identical.)

A lot of Hagen's convalesence scenes after the shooting were transposed onto Michael.

In this early version of the script, they make no bones about the fact that by this time, Connie is acting as a fully functional member of the family.

At least passing mention is given to Sonny's legitimate children -- Santino Jr. has become a dentist, and calls himself "Sandy."

No mention whatsoever of Connie's sons, Victor and Michael, who by this time would have been in their 30s, and probably involved in the family themselves (Michael commented on their getting involved in crime when they were kids in 1957). Maybe they're dead?

The time line is a little fuzzy -- the movie is framed around Tom Hagen's 70th birthday party, which would make it 1986. Some other time references seemed a little off; I suspect that neither Puzo nor FFC were probably as obsessive about exact dates as many hardcore fans were and are.

In this version at least, Hagen remains fully loyal and dependable even to the end -- I still can't believe at some time, the operative story line of GF III wasn't intended to focus on Michael finally being betrayed by Tom, since several scenes at the end of GF II clearly indicate a growing rift of loyalty between the two.

The out-of-nowhere appearance of Don Altobello, and his behind-the-scenes maneuvering to betray Michael, still seem to strongly indicate the part could have been originally have been written to depict the loyal and trusted Hagen, who by this time would have developed plenty of contacts himself in the underworld, eventually realizing he would never take over the family no matter what happened to Michael.

If Michael had retired, been incapacitated or died, the power struggle between Vito's adopted son, Tom Hagen, and his bastard grandson, Vincent, for ultimate control of the family would have been a great storyline -- perhaps with Connie, by now the shadowy Black Madonna of the entire family, making the ultimate decisions.

I agree about Connie. According to the Harlan Lebo's 'Godfather Legacy' a script that was written in the mid 80s, and was ultimately scrapped, had Neri admit to Connie that he betrayed Michael and left the drapes open at the communion.
She blackmails him into poioining Michael as payback for Carlo and is ultimately killed himself.
Personally, I'm glad that neither Neri nor Tom ever betrayed Michael.

Either way, Paramount obviously should have paid Duvall what he wanted. In my opinion he was certainly deserving.

That's for sure. Whether Tom Hagen ended up betraying Michael or not, it certainly would have been a more satisfying conclusion (or continuation) of the saga to have his storyline resolved in a more significant manner than just to say, "oh, he died."



Ehhhhhhh, I wouldn't buy that Connie would still be bent on revenge for Carlo, 25-30 years after he was killed.

By GF II Connie had clearly come to grips with the fact Carlo had to be killed. Connie always saw herself as a Corleone, not a Rizzi -- I would never have bought for a minute that Connie would have wanted Michael dead in revenge over Carlo.

Connie idolized Sonny, her oldest brother; Carlo had led directly to his death, and also brutally beat Connie. By having Carlo killed, Michael did Connie a big favor, in addition to getting revenge for Sonny and eliminating a security risk for the family.

Fast-forward Connie from the simple-minded teenager of GF I to the mouthy, brassy, bed-hopping floozy of GF II, she would have understood why Carlo had to go. Fast-forward her to the ruthless black-widow of GF III, she'd have pulled the garotte herself.

I agree. I would have also had a hard time accepting Neri as a traitor. Anybody who ever read the backstory on Neri in the novel would have to agree.
That's one of my huge problems with the Winegardner books.
He makes Neri out to be a one dimensional psychopath.
He did not do the proper research.

As I feel about Clemenza turning traitor (if he was to appear in Part II. For that very reason I'm glad Richard Castellano didn't come to terms with FFC).

Truthfully, I would have had a very hard time believing that Tom Hagen would ever betray Michael! I just feel that Hagen is too much of an old school kind of man who had pledged his loyalty to Vito and the Corleone family to ever do something like that to Michael.


As for the subject of this God awful book, well I am really struggling to finish it. Last night I couldn't even make it through a chapter! It just gets progressively worse.


Don Cardi

I hope this will be his last GF book then.

SPOILER * SPOILER * SPOILER


The only topic in this piece of trash that remotely appeals to the hardcore Godfather fan is the death of Tom Hagen.
Winegardner couldn't even get that right.
Don't you think if Tom was to have been murdered there would've been some hint of it in GF 3 ?
I wonder what Coppola thinks of this mess because the Puzo family obviously doesen't care. It looks like they're only loyalty is to the dollar bill.


**edited by Don Cardi to add a spoiler warning for those who may be, or are going to read the book.

I can't speak about Puzo's estate but FFC has been known to change storylines because of his own loyalty to the dollar bill. To wit, he purposely left Clemenza's death vague after Richard Castellano and he couldn't reach terms for his appearance in Part II; Hagen's vague disapperance from Part III was prompted by the same reason. Coppola was more concerned with the dollar than he was in the storyline.

I agree. As you probably know, Pacino was an early holdout as well. FFC threatened to open the film with the funeral of Michael Corleone. That aside, neither FFC nor the Puzo estate should be happy with either of these 2 books.

POSSIBLE SPOILER

Pizzaboy -

I once was shown a very rough early draft of a GFII script by an old neighbor of mine who had the Laser Disc version of the GF trilogy. In this rough draft it had storyboard sketches with one showing Tom Hagen getting shot and killed. I am so sorry that I never made copies of those storyboard drawings.I am thinking that Winegardner may have gotten this notion from possibly seeing these storyboards.

On another note, I would appreciate it, as I know some others here would also, if in the future, when you post something that happens in the Godfather's Revenge book, that you post "SPOILERS" and the CHAPTER that you are going to talk about at the very top of your post.

I am reading the book and did NOT get to the part, nor did I know, that Tom Hagen was killed. That was until I read your post. So please, in the future, post the SPOILER warning along with the Chapter so that you do not ruin it for others who may be reading the book.

Thanks.



Don Cardi

For some reason I don't think that it is. There are a lot of years, even after this book, that can be touched upon. I also have a feeling that he's going to do one about Vincent taking over after Mary's death. Probably will do it with the hopes of it being made into a motion picture.

Don Cardi

Sorry about that DC. I'll make sure to post SPOILERS in the future. Thanks for the heads up.
As far as Winegardner writing another book, I read where he said this was the last one, but we all know that doesen't really mean anything.

IMO GF IV, if it's ever made, should be multi-episodic like GF II, dealing with three time periods:

1. 1930s as Vito consolidates his empire and a teenage/young 20s Sonny enters the family business, exploring more of the back stories of guys like Tessio, Clemenza and Luca Brasi;

2. 1970s as Michael attempts to move the family into legitimate business, and the ultimate loyalty of Tom Hagen is tested, probably including his death. (This would be the hardest to carry off, since none of Pacino, Duvall or Shire can pass for being in their 40s-50s any more, even with heavy makeup).

3. 1990s as Vincent takes over the family, with Connie, effectively as his consigliere, and an emotionally shattered yet still sometimes dangerous Michael withdraws from the business, and other Corleone grandchildren such as Santino Jr. or Frank (Sonny's legitimate sons) and Michael (Rizzi) Corleone (Connie's son, the baby baptized at the end of GF I) make their own moves to assume control of the family.

4. Then, as in GF III, a brief coda set about 2008-2009, as an 85-ish Connie Corleone dies in the garden of the house in Long Island (repurchased by the family as a retirement home for the grande dame of the clan), slumping out of a lawn chair just yards away from the spot where Vito Corleone died in 1954.

(I realize this should probably go in the GF IV forum).

Well let's get in touch with the Puzo Estate and beg them to get someone else to write it.

SPOILERS * UP TO CHAPTER 25 * SPOILERS


Finally, a bit of mob action! Or so I thought.

Neri and his nephew trying to get information out of Geraci's father and daughter. Starts out pretty good, has a lot of potential for excitement, but winds up being a bit lame. Could have been a bit more interesting than it turns out to be.

Winegardner originally makes Fausto Geraci out to be this old fashioned tough mobster, and then in this chapter he cracks under pressure and gives up information about his son to Neri. Not believable at all.

To add insult to injury Winegardner tells us that when the prositute was killed while with Geary in Fredo's cathouse (GFII), Neri was NOT the one that killed her, but instead he gave the job to some young guy. Give me a break here Winegardner. Now why in the world would the Corleones involve someone outside the circle to carry out such a sensative job such as that one? In GFII we are told that they were very careful to pick a prositute that had no family, no background and no ties to anyone. They were setting up a United States Senator. We even see Neri in the background cleaning a knife. Does Winegardner really expect us to believe that Neri was only there to supervise and then do the clean up duties after the girl was killed?

Horrible. No real Godfather passion or savy whatsoever by Winegardner. Just continues to throw the bullshit references to the other GF movies out there without giving much thought at all to what he is writing.

These books are an infamia as far as I am concerned. They have absolutely no validity whatsoever.

What a damn shame.




Don Cardi

How are we suppose to believe that Neri did not kill her? Was he doing the outsider a favor by hanging around the scene of the murder and clean the knife? Bullshit! This is a perfect example of why I will not read "Revenge", why the Puzo estate picked Winegardner is beyond me.

What's next? Neri didn't kill Fredo either?

yeah, I admit I found the beginning of Godfather Revenge to be decent. however, as I kept reading I became more and more dissappointed. Thank god this is the last novel. I admit I do find the character Nick Geraci interesting.

Almost done. It's a struggle to pick up. It just keeps getting worse and worse.



Don Cardi

I got a LONG way to go. I'm only on pg. 101

SPOILERS! FINISHED! SPOILERS! FINISHED! SPOILERS!


Finally! Done ! Finished! Finito! THANK GOD!

HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE! What started out as a seemingly potential storyline turned into a terrible one in no time.
Winegardner did a terrible job in writing this book.

He basically borrowed from JFK/RFK history and tried to make it fit in his book. Francesca Corleone gets married and lives happily ever after with Johnny Fontane! And Michael gives his approval and walks her down the aisle! How believable is that one?

The killing of Tom Hagen was just ridiculous. There could have been 100 other scenerios used in the story to have Hagen killed off. But being tied to the drivers seat in a car that is plunged into a swamp? How lame.

And the supposed commission meeting that was going to take place. So predicatable as to how that turns out. Just two or three papragraphs into that chapter and you knew that Geraci was being misled and set up by Michael. And the final showdown between the two, so anti climactic. Winegardner uses almost the whole book to build up this intense dislike between Geraci and Michael, one that is sure to make for a great showdown. And with this, Winegardner again drops the ball. A bland and predicatable showdown. No imagination whatsoever in the writing of that chapter.

Winegardner also tries to make this cute little reference to a book that is written about a mob family, a book that goes on to inspire the making of three movies, with the first two becoming classics without ever using the word Mafia in those movies.


Scary thing here though is there is a good chance that Winegarner may attempt to write another GF book! Why do I say this? Because at the very ending, Connie confides in Michael, as they are walking along the beach and holding hands "just as they did as kids walking to school" that Fredo, (now brace yourself, get ready for this one, are you sitting down?)had an illigitimate child with a hollywood actress named Rita Duvall, and that Fredo's now 8 year old son is out there somewhere. It just so happens that Rita Duvall had been Michael's girlfriend throughout this book. Maybe Winegardner is going to name the next one " Fredo's Revenge."


It's really a disgrace that Puzo's estate picked this guy to write these GF books.

What a waste of my reading time. But thank God I'm done with it! And hopefully Winegardner is done destroying the Godfather and Corleone name.



Pure Crap!



Don Cardi

You make me laugh.

Maybe Winegardner should just stick to being a Professor in Florida or wherever he lives.

And Winegardner makes me cry.

Sad thing too is that Returns was a better book than Revenge! And that's not saying much.



Don Cardi

Did you ever finish Returns?

Yes I did. I originally thought that Returns was boring....that was until I read Revenge. Returns is a literary classic compared to Revenge.

In Revenge, he has this potentially great basis for what could be a really interesting stroy. He uses the Kennedy story and the New Orleans mob story for the foundation, but instead of building on that foundation, he instead uses it to fill up pages of the book. As you will see there is a whole lot of unecessary dialogue thougout the book along with some very unneeded sub plots. Sub plots that just don't work.


Don Cardi

Did you finish it DC ?
How obnoxious to suggest that "Fausto's Bargain" would go on to inspire three movies. An obvious allusion to the trilogy, written by a faux Puzo.