Thanks.

I've read through half of it... I wish they would've stuck to this script (and would've paid Duvall the money he was seeking).

A few "surprises" from this version.

- Willie Cicci is in it. He hates Vincent; Cicci gets killed in a takeoff of Paul Castellano's murder.

- Rocco Lampone is in it. (He has a small part through what I've read).

- Tom Hagen discovers that Don Altobello is behind a scheme to counterfeit the Church's securities and gets shot (he survives) because of that discovery.

- The Russo Bros. (backed by Altobello) get killed on 46th Street (a reference to Spark's Steakhouse where Paul Castellano was gunned down) at a restaurant named Joe & Mary's (in real life where Carmine Galante was killed).

Anyway, here's a link (below) to that script:

GODFATHER III SCRIPT - FIRST DRAFT

Joe Spinell was to reprise his role as Willie Cicci but died in 1989. That's apparently when Zasa was written in.
Puzo/FFC decided that Rocco couldn't have survived his wounds and wrote him out.
The most intriguing possibility was Hagen. Opening the movie in Vegas for his birthday instead of Michael being honored by the church in NY.
Oh, what could have been.....

You can see how various scenes originally written for completely different purposes eventually did make it into the movie as actually released: the horseback shooting scene where Vincent kills Zasa was originally written as Tom Hagen being wounded, not killed, in a hit attempt.

Obviously Zasa was written in almost wholesale to replace the part originally intended for Cicci. (The names, of course, being phonetically almost identical.)

A lot of Hagen's convalesence scenes after the shooting were transposed onto Michael.

In this early version of the script, they make no bones about the fact that by this time, Connie is acting as a fully functional member of the family.

At least passing mention is given to Sonny's legitimate children -- Santino Jr. has become a dentist, and calls himself "Sandy."

No mention whatsoever of Connie's sons, Victor and Michael, who by this time would have been in their 30s, and probably involved in the family themselves (Michael commented on their getting involved in crime when they were kids in 1957). Maybe they're dead?

The time line is a little fuzzy -- the movie is framed around Tom Hagen's 70th birthday party, which would make it 1986. Some other time references seemed a little off; I suspect that neither Puzo nor FFC were probably as obsessive about exact dates as many hardcore fans were and are.

In this version at least, Hagen remains fully loyal and dependable even to the end -- I still can't believe at some time, the operative story line of GF III wasn't intended to focus on Michael finally being betrayed by Tom, since several scenes at the end of GF II clearly indicate a growing rift of loyalty between the two.

The out-of-nowhere appearance of Don Altobello, and his behind-the-scenes maneuvering to betray Michael, still seem to strongly indicate the part could have been originally have been written to depict the loyal and trusted Hagen, who by this time would have developed plenty of contacts himself in the underworld, eventually realizing he would never take over the family no matter what happened to Michael.

If Michael had retired, been incapacitated or died, the power struggle between Vito's adopted son, Tom Hagen, and his bastard grandson, Vincent, for ultimate control of the family would have been a great storyline -- perhaps with Connie, by now the shadowy Black Madonna of the entire family, making the ultimate decisions.

I agree about Connie. According to the Harlan Lebo's 'Godfather Legacy' a script that was written in the mid 80s, and was ultimately scrapped, had Neri admit to Connie that he betrayed Michael and left the drapes open at the communion.
She blackmails him into poioining Michael as payback for Carlo and is ultimately killed himself.
Personally, I'm glad that neither Neri nor Tom ever betrayed Michael.

Either way, Paramount obviously should have paid Duvall what he wanted. In my opinion he was certainly deserving.

That's for sure. Whether Tom Hagen ended up betraying Michael or not, it certainly would have been a more satisfying conclusion (or continuation) of the saga to have his storyline resolved in a more significant manner than just to say, "oh, he died."



Ehhhhhhh, I wouldn't buy that Connie would still be bent on revenge for Carlo, 25-30 years after he was killed.

By GF II Connie had clearly come to grips with the fact Carlo had to be killed. Connie always saw herself as a Corleone, not a Rizzi -- I would never have bought for a minute that Connie would have wanted Michael dead in revenge over Carlo.

Connie idolized Sonny, her oldest brother; Carlo had led directly to his death, and also brutally beat Connie. By having Carlo killed, Michael did Connie a big favor, in addition to getting revenge for Sonny and eliminating a security risk for the family.

Fast-forward Connie from the simple-minded teenager of GF I to the mouthy, brassy, bed-hopping floozy of GF II, she would have understood why Carlo had to go. Fast-forward her to the ruthless black-widow of GF III, she'd have pulled the garotte herself.

I agree. I would have also had a hard time accepting Neri as a traitor. Anybody who ever read the backstory on Neri in the novel would have to agree.
That's one of my huge problems with the Winegardner books.
He makes Neri out to be a one dimensional psychopath.
He did not do the proper research.

As I feel about Clemenza turning traitor (if he was to appear in Part II. For that very reason I'm glad Richard Castellano didn't come to terms with FFC).

Truthfully, I would have had a very hard time believing that Tom Hagen would ever betray Michael! I just feel that Hagen is too much of an old school kind of man who had pledged his loyalty to Vito and the Corleone family to ever do something like that to Michael.


As for the subject of this God awful book, well I am really struggling to finish it. Last night I couldn't even make it through a chapter! It just gets progressively worse.


Don Cardi

I hope this will be his last GF book then.

SPOILER * SPOILER * SPOILER


The only topic in this piece of trash that remotely appeals to the hardcore Godfather fan is the death of Tom Hagen.
Winegardner couldn't even get that right.
Don't you think if Tom was to have been murdered there would've been some hint of it in GF 3 ?
I wonder what Coppola thinks of this mess because the Puzo family obviously doesen't care. It looks like they're only loyalty is to the dollar bill.


**edited by Don Cardi to add a spoiler warning for those who may be, or are going to read the book.

I can't speak about Puzo's estate but FFC has been known to change storylines because of his own loyalty to the dollar bill. To wit, he purposely left Clemenza's death vague after Richard Castellano and he couldn't reach terms for his appearance in Part II; Hagen's vague disapperance from Part III was prompted by the same reason. Coppola was more concerned with the dollar than he was in the storyline.

I agree. As you probably know, Pacino was an early holdout as well. FFC threatened to open the film with the funeral of Michael Corleone. That aside, neither FFC nor the Puzo estate should be happy with either of these 2 books.

POSSIBLE SPOILER

Pizzaboy -

I once was shown a very rough early draft of a GFII script by an old neighbor of mine who had the Laser Disc version of the GF trilogy. In this rough draft it had storyboard sketches with one showing Tom Hagen getting shot and killed. I am so sorry that I never made copies of those storyboard drawings.I am thinking that Winegardner may have gotten this notion from possibly seeing these storyboards.

On another note, I would appreciate it, as I know some others here would also, if in the future, when you post something that happens in the Godfather's Revenge book, that you post "SPOILERS" and the CHAPTER that you are going to talk about at the very top of your post.

I am reading the book and did NOT get to the part, nor did I know, that Tom Hagen was killed. That was until I read your post. So please, in the future, post the SPOILER warning along with the Chapter so that you do not ruin it for others who may be reading the book.

Thanks.



Don Cardi

For some reason I don't think that it is. There are a lot of years, even after this book, that can be touched upon. I also have a feeling that he's going to do one about Vincent taking over after Mary's death. Probably will do it with the hopes of it being made into a motion picture.

Don Cardi

Sorry about that DC. I'll make sure to post SPOILERS in the future. Thanks for the heads up.
As far as Winegardner writing another book, I read where he said this was the last one, but we all know that doesen't really mean anything.

IMO GF IV, if it's ever made, should be multi-episodic like GF II, dealing with three time periods:

1. 1930s as Vito consolidates his empire and a teenage/young 20s Sonny enters the family business, exploring more of the back stories of guys like Tessio, Clemenza and Luca Brasi;

2. 1970s as Michael attempts to move the family into legitimate business, and the ultimate loyalty of Tom Hagen is tested, probably including his death. (This would be the hardest to carry off, since none of Pacino, Duvall or Shire can pass for being in their 40s-50s any more, even with heavy makeup).

3. 1990s as Vincent takes over the family, with Connie, effectively as his consigliere, and an emotionally shattered yet still sometimes dangerous Michael withdraws from the business, and other Corleone grandchildren such as Santino Jr. or Frank (Sonny's legitimate sons) and Michael (Rizzi) Corleone (Connie's son, the baby baptized at the end of GF I) make their own moves to assume control of the family.

4. Then, as in GF III, a brief coda set about 2008-2009, as an 85-ish Connie Corleone dies in the garden of the house in Long Island (repurchased by the family as a retirement home for the grande dame of the clan), slumping out of a lawn chair just yards away from the spot where Vito Corleone died in 1954.

(I realize this should probably go in the GF IV forum).

Well let's get in touch with the Puzo Estate and beg them to get someone else to write it.

SPOILERS * UP TO CHAPTER 25 * SPOILERS


Finally, a bit of mob action! Or so I thought.

Neri and his nephew trying to get information out of Geraci's father and daughter. Starts out pretty good, has a lot of potential for excitement, but winds up being a bit lame. Could have been a bit more interesting than it turns out to be.

Winegardner originally makes Fausto Geraci out to be this old fashioned tough mobster, and then in this chapter he cracks under pressure and gives up information about his son to Neri. Not believable at all.

To add insult to injury Winegardner tells us that when the prositute was killed while with Geary in Fredo's cathouse (GFII), Neri was NOT the one that killed her, but instead he gave the job to some young guy. Give me a break here Winegardner. Now why in the world would the Corleones involve someone outside the circle to carry out such a sensative job such as that one? In GFII we are told that they were very careful to pick a prositute that had no family, no background and no ties to anyone. They were setting up a United States Senator. We even see Neri in the background cleaning a knife. Does Winegardner really expect us to believe that Neri was only there to supervise and then do the clean up duties after the girl was killed?

Horrible. No real Godfather passion or savy whatsoever by Winegardner. Just continues to throw the bullshit references to the other GF movies out there without giving much thought at all to what he is writing.

These books are an infamia as far as I am concerned. They have absolutely no validity whatsoever.

What a damn shame.




Don Cardi

How are we suppose to believe that Neri did not kill her? Was he doing the outsider a favor by hanging around the scene of the murder and clean the knife? Bullshit! This is a perfect example of why I will not read "Revenge", why the Puzo estate picked Winegardner is beyond me.

What's next? Neri didn't kill Fredo either?

yeah, I admit I found the beginning of Godfather Revenge to be decent. however, as I kept reading I became more and more dissappointed. Thank god this is the last novel. I admit I do find the character Nick Geraci interesting.

Almost done. It's a struggle to pick up. It just keeps getting worse and worse.



Don Cardi

I got a LONG way to go. I'm only on pg. 101

SPOILERS! FINISHED! SPOILERS! FINISHED! SPOILERS!


Finally! Done ! Finished! Finito! THANK GOD!

HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE! What started out as a seemingly potential storyline turned into a terrible one in no time.
Winegardner did a terrible job in writing this book.

He basically borrowed from JFK/RFK history and tried to make it fit in his book. Francesca Corleone gets married and lives happily ever after with Johnny Fontane! And Michael gives his approval and walks her down the aisle! How believable is that one?

The killing of Tom Hagen was just ridiculous. There could have been 100 other scenerios used in the story to have Hagen killed off. But being tied to the drivers seat in a car that is plunged into a swamp? How lame.

And the supposed commission meeting that was going to take place. So predicatable as to how that turns out. Just two or three papragraphs into that chapter and you knew that Geraci was being misled and set up by Michael. And the final showdown between the two, so anti climactic. Winegardner uses almost the whole book to build up this intense dislike between Geraci and Michael, one that is sure to make for a great showdown. And with this, Winegardner again drops the ball. A bland and predicatable showdown. No imagination whatsoever in the writing of that chapter.

Winegardner also tries to make this cute little reference to a book that is written about a mob family, a book that goes on to inspire the making of three movies, with the first two becoming classics without ever using the word Mafia in those movies.


Scary thing here though is there is a good chance that Winegarner may attempt to write another GF book! Why do I say this? Because at the very ending, Connie confides in Michael, as they are walking along the beach and holding hands "just as they did as kids walking to school" that Fredo, (now brace yourself, get ready for this one, are you sitting down?)had an illigitimate child with a hollywood actress named Rita Duvall, and that Fredo's now 8 year old son is out there somewhere. It just so happens that Rita Duvall had been Michael's girlfriend throughout this book. Maybe Winegardner is going to name the next one " Fredo's Revenge."


It's really a disgrace that Puzo's estate picked this guy to write these GF books.

What a waste of my reading time. But thank God I'm done with it! And hopefully Winegardner is done destroying the Godfather and Corleone name.



Pure Crap!



Don Cardi

You make me laugh.

Maybe Winegardner should just stick to being a Professor in Florida or wherever he lives.

And Winegardner makes me cry.

Sad thing too is that Returns was a better book than Revenge! And that's not saying much.



Don Cardi

Did you ever finish Returns?

Yes I did. I originally thought that Returns was boring....that was until I read Revenge. Returns is a literary classic compared to Revenge.

In Revenge, he has this potentially great basis for what could be a really interesting stroy. He uses the Kennedy story and the New Orleans mob story for the foundation, but instead of building on that foundation, he instead uses it to fill up pages of the book. As you will see there is a whole lot of unecessary dialogue thougout the book along with some very unneeded sub plots. Sub plots that just don't work.


Don Cardi