Oops! I thought that WAS about the board and ways to tweak the votes.

I should have known this board was run too securely and professionally for hackers or computerphiles or other quick witted types to play around with the polls.

So how does someone change his/her vote? Has anyone ever wanted to do that before?

There is no way of knowing if Fredo would set Mikey up again... but you cant chance it.

FWIW - Fredo wanted what Mikey had... so he would IMO set him up again

Nevermind

You just don't have your own brother killed. Especially one like Fredo. That was cold and heartless. He killed his mother's son, he killed his father's son.

Let me ask you this : Do you think that Vito would have had his brother killed had he been put into the same situation?

Fredo would definitely have done it again. I may be repeating myself here because I don't want to go back and reread what was posted, but I think that, until the boathouse, Michael was willing to believe that Fredo was duped. He innocently talked too much to the wrong people.

But in the boathouse, Michael finally sees that Fredo is MAD. He's angry and resentful of Michael's success. He can't be angry at his father, because he loved Vito too much, but he truly believes that he was capable of taking over the Family, and that Michael was pushed ahead of him. He's FURIOUS at this, and his jealousy would have caused him to try and set Michael up again one day. He was not only envious of Michael's position and power, but his marriage and children, too.

Michael killed Fredo to protect all of his interests, personal and business, since they were intertwined. It was the one sin he committed that he couldn't live with, but it was necessary.

Fredo would have done it again except there would be no one stupid enough to use Fredo to get to Mike.

That's where I come out, SB. Michael may have been willing to give his brother a pass prior to that scene. He might have been persuaded that Fredo's stupidity made him a victim of Roth's guiles and an "unwitting" participant in the hit attempt. But the outburst showed Michael all the pent-up rage and resentment Fredo had been harboring, was still harboring--and no doubt would have continued to harbor as long as he was alive. No way he could have felt safe forever.
DC, I agree with you that Michael's "forgiving" Fredo and keeping him at the compound was supremely cold-hearted and manipulative. But that was Michael.

I don't know here. I'm 50 / 50 on this. After Mike "forgives" Fredo at his mother's wake, Fredo seems at ease (which was Mike's intent of course). Part of me believes that Fredo felt that Mike was sincere in forgiving him, and that he was finaly off the hook. At that point I don't know if Fredo would have taken another opportunity to go against Mike, or do something behind his back again. I think that Fredo realized that he was duped the first time, and was too scared to ever let himself get duped again into doing something behind Mike's back.

And in my thinking this way, the question is, did Fredo intentionally set up Mike, or did he really think that he was just spiting Mike and getting even with him by trying to make a deal on his own?. Personally I think that he was fooled by Ola and Roth. I don't believe that he ever intended to have Mike physically hurt. His dealing with Ola was more out of anger of being passed over and he thought that it was his chance to finally show Mike that he was smart and could do things on his own. I don't think that there was ever a intent on Fedo's part to physically hurt Mike or help have him killed. Fedo had too much of a heart to go that far. And that is why I think that Fredo learned his lesson and would never make that mistake again concerning Michael's well being.

Michael was a son of a bitch to have Fredo killed.

I agree that Fredo was duped. However, Michael realized after the boathouse seen that Fredo was a ch*nk in the Family's armor. To allow him to live, he would have left the Family, and subsequently his family, vulnerable to another attack. Remember, although Michael forgave Fredo, how much longer until that resentment built up again? Oh, sure, let Fredo take Anthony fishing. Oh, sure, make Fredo stay at the compound all the time. Oh, sure, even Connie is making decisions, while Fredo becomes the babysitter!

Fredo's guilt is apparent in the Havana scene. He questions why he and Michael never had more of those talks, spent more time together. Obviously, he is thinking that his brother's love is apparent to him for the first time (You're no gypsy, Fredo) and thinking to himself, Ah! If I had only known!

No, he was a lousy cold hearted bastard

Fredo says that Michael was being tough on some negotiations and that Ola proomised Fredo there would be something in it for him if he could get Michael soften up. He then says he "didn't know it was going to be a hit." So taking Fredo at his word, what did he think? Was he supposed to go to Michael and say, "Hey Mikey, I hear you are being tough on some negotiations with Hyman Roth, why don't you ease up?" I can imagine how that one would go over. Which brings us back to the drapes. "Open the drapes the night of Anthony's Communion party and that will make Mike come to his senses about the negotiations?" Was Fredo THAT stupid?

Good point SB. Fredo seems outright angry when he says "Why didn;t we spend time like this before," and "I wish I'd married a woman like you did." (BTW is this some clue about Fredo's sexuality? I wish I married a WOMAN???? Was Deanna a drag queen?)

But we don't know if it was Fredo who opened the drapes. I believe that FFC would have made it a point to let us know at some point if it was Fredo.

I just think that he was dumb and really did not think that there was going to be a hit attempt on Mike. He even confirms this in his telephone conversation with Ola. "You guys lied to me."

Fredo was just stupid.

Now if Mike had him killed because he felt that Fredo's STUPIDITY could be a threat to his life, then that's a different story. But after Fredo's outburst I believe that Michael took it as if Fredo INTENTIONALLY set him up and betrayed him knowing that an attempt was going to be made on his life and that is why he had Fredo killed.

I think that Fredo's stupidity is part of it. Fredo was stupid, envious and resentful, a very dangerous combination. I don't believe that Michael thought of his brother as a killer. I think that when he saw the depth of Fredo's anger in the boathouse, combined with how gullible he was, he knew that the combination could prove lethal. And that's why he had to have his brother eliminated before he could do harm again.

Something else sticks in my craw re. the Havana scene:
In the boathouse confrontation later, Fredo says, "I swear to God I didn't know it was going to be a hit. Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills...he said there'd be somethin' in it for me..." Sounds like the kind of simpleminded, impulsive, greedy move that a dunce like Fredo would have taken, without thinking of the consequences.
But then I'm reminded of the Superman scene in Havana. How did Fredo find the place? "Johnny Ola brought me here...old man Roth would never come here but Johnny knows these places like the back of his hand." So now I infer that Fredo didn't just "bump into" Ola in Beverly Hills. It wasn't just some spur-of-the-moment decision. Evidently he was, unbeknownst to Michael, meeting with Ola (and probably Roth) in Havana previously. What were they doing in Havana--tarpon fishing? Visiting sex shows? Or, were Ola and Roth showing Fredo the empire that Fredo could run once his brother was out of the way?

Both

Good point Turnbull. But then again we don't know if they were fooling Fredo into believing that if he helped them out, things would work out for the Corleones and Michael would realize that it was Fredo who was instrumental in making things work and then would have to reward Fredo for "doing a good job." Or perhaps they fooled Fredo into thinking that if he helped out, they would make sure that Michael would give him a piece of the pie.

There are so many scenerios that we can create out of the Fredo situation, but I guess we'll never really know.

I just cannot believe that Fredo KNEW that they were going to hit Mike.

Good points by both of you guys! But, I have to go with DC when I say of course Fredo had no idea it was gonna be a hit, otherwise, why would FFC show us the scene with Fredo in the bed on the telephone being scared and remorsefull??? There was no one there but him (except his loser wife). He has no reason to put up a "front". He's seriously remorsefull and was completely oblivious.

Well, we can agree on that point. To me, though, that's what makes Fredo all the more dangerous to keep around.

I still don't understand what it was Fredo thought he was going to do to get Mike to go easy on the "negotiations." It is even more perplexing that Fredo seemed legitimately clueless about the family making an investment with Roth in Havana. What other "negotiations" were going on? It wasnt over the Tropicala because Ola already told Mike that Roth gave the ok to the deal.

It could have been over the Tropicala. We don't know how long ago Fredo "bumped into" Ola. But, really, I doubt they told Fredo, and I doubt he even thought to ask. He was blinded by the opportunity to make something on his own.

The late-night phone call shows that Fredo realizes he was lied to, making it likely that he didn't know it was a hit. But the question remains: What information did Fredo provide Roth, and how could he have possibly thought it would have helped in a negotiation?

Yes. A constant theme in the Trilogy is "carelessness" (Vito's term) caused when greed, lust for revenge, yearning for power, etc., lead people into idiotic mistakes. Logically,did Paulie think he could get away with calling in "sick" on the day Vito was shot? Did Carlo think that the family wouldn't connect his beating of Connie with Sonny's assassination?
And did Fredo think that whatever "help" he gave Roth and Ola wouldn't result in harm to his brother? Did he care?


Maybe. But the "lie" he protested also might have been an earlier assurance by Ola that the hit would be neat, clean and successful.

Well, that's one of two closely related, long-term $64,000 unanswered questions on these boards. The other is: who killed the Tahoe shooters?

[quote=TurnbullWell, that's one of two closely related, long-term $64,000 unanswered questions on these boards. The other is: who killed the Tahoe shooters? [/quote]


Not to mention how they could tell the shooters were hired out of New York.

Not to mention how they could tell the shooters were hired out of New York. [/quote]
Rocco found Metrocards in their pockets.

Rocco found Metrocards in their pockets. [/quote]

I was gonna say that!!

I was gonna say that!! [/quote]


Back in the '50's it would have to have been subway tokens.

I think Mike knew before the boathouse scene that he was going to have to get rid of Fredo. He only went in their to get information about Roth and the investigation IMO.

"Fredo... dont ever take sides against the family again... EVER!" - I think Mike really meant it and was letting it be known that he would pay for that.

In Mikes mind... Fredo had betrayed Mike more than just the shooting in his bedroom.... w/ Moe Green etc...

It was him or Fredo. He chose to live. Thats about all their is to it.

15-cent tokens at that. Maybe the gunmen had "Miss Rheingold" subway cards on them.

This is an AMAZING discussion. I would have never thought that Fredo had different intentions than those he signaled in the boat house to Mike. But...after Fredo tells Mike that he didn't know it was going to be a hit, Mike asks him...you believed that story? Fredo's reaction is... they said there was somethin' in it for me. I sense that this suggests that Fredo's logic about the hit on Mike was clouded by his own greed.

However...I do not think that Fredo would have done it again.

Granted...he might have slipped up again had Mike not killed him. But...Mike sure killed him.

He told Mike that he didn't know it was going to be a hit. I "believe" him.