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Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: SC] #380286
03/30/07 05:27 PM
03/30/07 05:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

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Throggs Neck
 Originally Posted By: SC
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso

Therefore if Kay had been hauled before a grand jury Michael would never have become the Don and everything else would have changed, including the prestige of Tom Hagen who may well have been the power behind the throne of Don Fredo Corleone (after Sonny's death).


You're the lawyer, but I thought a wife couldn't be forced to testify against her husband.


I recall in an episode of The Sopranos, Adriana consulting with a private detective or a law clerk to find out if that was still a valid argument, if the government had found a way around that. She was told that in some instances she could be forced to testify.

It's just a tv show but I wonder if there was any truth to his answer.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: pizzaboy] #380290
03/30/07 05:32 PM
03/30/07 05:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
 Originally Posted By: SC
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso

Therefore if Kay had been hauled before a grand jury Michael would never have become the Don and everything else would have changed, including the prestige of Tom Hagen who may well have been the power behind the throne of Don Fredo Corleone (after Sonny's death).


You're the lawyer, but I thought a wife couldn't be forced to testify against her husband.


I recall in an episode of The Sopranos, Adriana consulting with a private detective or a law clerk to find out if that was still a valid argument, if the government had found a way around that. She was told that in some instances she could be forced to testify.

It's just a tv show but I wonder if there was any truth to his answer.


Well, if the government could show (not necessarily prove) that the info possessed by the wife was not exclusive to the wife or that she furthered a criminal enterprise, she could lose the wife's defense.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: olivant] #380291
03/30/07 05:34 PM
03/30/07 05:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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pizzaboy  Offline
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Posts: 23,296
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That's what I figured Olivant, I was just hoping to hear an example from one of our fine lawyers here on the BB.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: pizzaboy] #380385
03/30/07 08:45 PM
03/30/07 08:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
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olivant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
That's what I figured Olivant, I was just hoping to hear an example from one of our fine lawyers here on the BB.


Wait a minute. "Fine" lawyer? Isn't that kind of like "good" devil?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: olivant] #380392
03/30/07 09:00 PM
03/30/07 09:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

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Posts: 23,296
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Another oxymoron!


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: pizzaboy] #380396
03/30/07 09:10 PM
03/30/07 09:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
What follows ten lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: olivant] #380398
03/30/07 09:15 PM
03/30/07 09:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
What ?


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: pizzaboy] #380399
03/30/07 09:20 PM
03/30/07 09:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
Applause.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: olivant] #380476
03/31/07 11:02 AM
03/31/07 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
 Originally Posted By: olivant
 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
 Originally Posted By: SC
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso

Therefore if Kay had been hauled before a grand jury Michael would never have become the Don and everything else would have changed, including the prestige of Tom Hagen who may well have been the power behind the throne of Don Fredo Corleone (after Sonny's death).


You're the lawyer, but I thought a wife couldn't be forced to testify against her husband.


I recall in an episode of The Sopranos, Adriana consulting with a private detective or a law clerk to find out if that was still a valid argument, if the government had found a way around that. She was told that in some instances she could be forced to testify.

It's just a tv show but I wonder if there was any truth to his answer.


Well, if the government could show (not necessarily prove) that the info possessed by the wife was not exclusive to the wife or that she furthered a criminal enterprise, she could lose the wife's defense.



Yes, its called the "crime-fraud" exception to privilege. It also applies to lawyers, doctors and spouses, and possibly even clergy. If the person claiming privilege has been told that a crime is going to happen or if he or she is furthering a crime or a fraud then there is no privilege which attaches. The confession of a past crime , however is privileged. Enev so in many jurisdictions there have been statutory exceptions made, especially in the area of sexual abuse of children. In my territory, for instance, it is a CRIME not to report an admiossion of such child abuse to the authorities regardless of who you are.

As for those who would applaud lawyers on the bottom of the ocean, just wait till you need one


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: dontomasso] #380478
03/31/07 11:16 AM
03/31/07 11:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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Thanks DT, I was hoping for an answer from you.

Florida's got some of the strictest domestic abuse policies in the country also, don't they ? Boy, it just doesn't pay to get married down there. Just kidding.

BTW - Your territory ? I always use that expression. It's my ode to Sal Tessio.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: pizzaboy] #380483
03/31/07 12:26 PM
03/31/07 12:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
 Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
BTW - Your territory ? I always use that expression. It's my ode to Sal Tessio.


LOL mine too, but is also to Vito who, in his opening remarks to the commission, when he makes the peace, thanks all the other associates who have come from "California and Kansas City and all the other TERRITORIES of this country."


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom Hagan - interacting with Vito, Sonny, and Mike [Re: dontomasso] #386308
04/18/07 11:25 AM
04/18/07 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 246
NY
B
Buttmunker Offline OP
Made Member
Buttmunker  Offline OP
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Made Member
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Posts: 246
NY
I think that, if given a choice, Tom would have disassociated himself with the Corleones after he saw how Michael was running the show.

Tom's dedication, loyalty (and yes, love) was to Vito, and possibly to Santino, had he lived on as Don. Tom never signed on for Michael, who was so different from Vito and Santino.

Can you imagine how Tom felt, after Vito died, having to be humble and in fear of your life under the bloody reign of Michael?

Santino may have been "a bad Don, rest in peace," but he knew just as much as Michael did - he knew the heads of the Five Families had to be killed (this is mentioned specifically in the book, but even in the film Santino says to Tom: "I'm going to end it be killing that old bastard..." - meaning Taltallia). Santino had heart, Michael lacked heart - Vito was heart, and it was the heart that drew Tom to the fold. Tom was already a lawyer before he started to work for Vito and the Corleone Family, and it was Tom's choice to climb aboard - it was Vito he signed on for, but I suppose he should have known that Vito wouldn't have lived forever, and that sons usually fuck things up - whether it be a mob family, or any family-owned business.

Nobody thinks and works like Poppa.

Last edited by Buttmunker; 04/18/07 11:26 AM.
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